Key Post Contributing to DC pension in excess of tax relief limit

Nerak14

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Hi,

I have excess funds that I would like to invest in shares (I have a rainy day fund in place, tracker mortgage 20yrs/ €300k that I overpay each month and a mortgage free investment property) my DC pension is 650k and 80% equities with Zurich and blackrock.
I am 45 with no dependents and hope to move to a less stressful (but lower paid) job in 5-7yrs time.
To avoid additional hassle I’m wondering if I can make avcs to my pension scheme above the tax deduction limit, i.e. put in money that won’t get me tax relief but will give me access to markets without having to open an additional account with a broker?
 
Not a good idea to put into pension plan without tax relief on the way-in, as income from pensions is taxable as income on drawdown. Based on your age and accumulated funds, I highly doubt you’ll be able to draw down at retirement without paying tax (bar the initial lump sum). I would suggest you open an account with a broker. A small bit of initial hassle, but much better than putting into pension if you have already maxed out on relief.
 
An AVC plan forms part of the main Scheme and, as such, the Trustee of the main Scheme will monitor for possible over-funding (overpayment). This position may occur if your personal account provides a pension that would bring you over the maximum pension limit.

A basic maximum accrual rate of one-sixtieth of final remuneration for each year's service is approvable for any period of service of 40 years or less (a pension on this basis is commonly described as a pension of N/60ths).

The calculation of final remuneration is the average of the total emoluments for any three or more consecutive years ending not earlier than ten years before the relevant retirement date.

Normally the retirement benefits which are payable under the rules of your main company pension plan are lower than the maximum benefits which are permitted by the Revenue Commissioners.

Therefore, most people have scope to pay AVCs to increase their retirement benefits. For example, some of your earnings may not be included in the calculation of the pension amount payable from your main plan - e.g. overtime, bonuses, commissions or car allowance or you may have entered your pension plan at an age when you are not expected to receive full pension benefits from your company’s main pension plan when you retire.

If you are a member of an occupational pension scheme in the private or public sector, you can make additional voluntary contributions as an AVC to the main scheme, in a defined benefit scheme you may be able to purchase “added years” or a notional service pension or you could contribute to a PRSA.

If you make additional voluntary contributions to a PRSA, then your benefits will be subject to the rules of the scheme and the Revenue limits applying to occupational pension schemes.

You should note however that there are now maximum fund thresholds in place. A fund threshold is the maximum fund that a person is permitted to have for providing retirement benefits. If your fund is greater than the fund threshold then the amount in excess of the threshold will be subject to income tax at your marginal rate when you retire. The maximum fund threshold is €2.0 Million Euro.

From the Revenue pension manual


Tax relief in respect of contributions in any one tax year is subject to the limits for employee contributions, as detailed in Chapter 3.

Relief for employer contributions is subject to the rules in Chapter 4 .

The limits on Tax Relieved Pension Funds also apply, please see Chapter 25.

Care must be taken to ensure that overfunding does not occur, as surplus funds may have to be refunded to the employer and taxed as a trading receipt.

Details of maximum retirement benefits are contained in Chapter 6.

Additional voluntary contributions (AVCs) can be made if the total of employer contributions and employee normal contributions do not exceed the above limits and the total employee contribution limits as outlined in Chapter 3.

So I’m conclusion there are two clear risks here.

1) Maximum benefits that are available from the occupational scheme need to be assessed against the best 3 years in the previous 10 years so a reduction in earnings at the end of career may not be an issue.

2) Pension benefits in excess of the SFT currently €2m suffer an effective marginal rate of tax of over 70%

so care needs to be take not to overfund a pension via AVCs and in the worse case scenario an overfund goes back to the EMPLOYER. Not such a bad outcome if you own the company but a poor outcome for an employee.

BUT,

you are getting gross roll up free from personal taxes so all things being equal you will accumulate a larger fund than you would under an alternative personal investment option.

 
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My suggestion would be to move to a 100% allocation to a global equities within your pension fund and invest any after-tax savings in (tax-free) 5-year State Savings Certs.

Alternatively, just pay down your mortgage with your after-tax savings.

In your circumstances, I don’t think it’s a good idea to make additional contributions to your pension which don’t benefit from tax-relief on the way in.
 
Another downside to the pension is the annual fees, if you're 20 years from retirement, and your pension provider are taking 1% in fees (which is probably a lower bound estimate), that's 20% and the opportunity cost of the lack of compounding on that.
without having to open an additional account with a broker
This isn't a big deal, it's not much hassle to open an account online with Degiro for example. At least with what could be 5 figure sums at stake it shouldn't be your primary consideration.
 
1) Maximum benefits that are available from the occupational scheme need to be assessed against the best 3 years in the previous 10 years so a reduction in earnings at the end of career may not be an issue.
I'm in similar position to original poster. I'm not yet 50 but have been making AVC with my DC pension contributions. I also have DB from previous scheme. I might find myself moving to part time work for more than a decade before drawing down pensions at 65. For an extreme example if I moved to working 1 day and my salary reduced to 20% from age 54 to 65 would my max pension drawdown be based on original salary or reduced salary
 
Thanks all,
Sarenco I have 100k in state savings so not inclined to add more there so guess I’ll stick with overpaying the mortgage.
If I look to take lump sum on early retirement say at 52, do I need to be moving the expected amount to cash allocation at 50 or so? Would plan on Arf for the balance. I’m managing the pension allocations myself as lifestyle approach doesn’t match my time horizon
 
If I look to take lump sum on early retirement say at 52, do I need to be moving the expected amount to cash allocation at 50 or so? Would plan on Arf for the balance. I’m managing the pension allocations myself as lifestyle approach doesn’t match my time horizon

We explored this question in detail recently also. We highlight some of the shortcomings of a lifestyle strategy which seeks to lower the risk as one approaches retirement. For some people, especially those with high debts, it might be beneficial to access a pension early and use the lump sum to pay down debt rather than reduce risk in the pension fund. Although we considered this in respect of a deferred pension rather than your current occupational scheme.

 
If I look to take lump sum on early retirement say at 52, do I need to be moving the expected amount to cash allocation at 50 or so?
Personally, I wouldn't adjust your asset allocation in your pension to allow for the fact that you may take a lump sum in the future.

However, I do think it is important to consider all accounts (mortgage, pension and after-tax savings) in determining your asset allocation, rather than focusing on your pension fund in isolation.

For this purpose, I would treat your mortgage as a "negative bond", so paying down your mortgage is economically the equivalent to purchasing bonds.

To put it another way, paying down your mortgage ahead of schedule de-risks your overall financial position in the same way that adding investment grade bonds to an equity heavy portfolio de-risks (and diversifies) the portfolio.
 
You can “over contribute “ to pension, as in put in more than 30%, you can carry forward excess pension contributions to future tax years. You would need to drop your regular contributions in future to benefit. It has the benefit that investment is growing tax free.

Negatives
You have to work in future to benefit.
May have to file tax return
 
Thanks folks for the feedback, especially...I was really unaware of the fact that it is possible to overcontribute to the pension. Brendan, the idea was to leave the ETF investment for about 7-8 years and forget about it. Then after 7 or 8 years rebalance the portfolio and have it more geared torwards cash and bonds and less shares. I understand that this is way ahead into the future anyway, and as we all know the future is quite impredictable
 
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I thought that this 30% was the maximum that I could contribute to the pension in a tax efficient way hence this is why I started looking at the ETFs
You won't get income tax relief whether you put your funds either in an ETF or your pension fund where you've already maxed out contributons.

So your only choice is regarding what tax you'll pay in future. For me, no CGT plus 25% tax-free withdrawal after 60 beats deemed disposable at 41% in any universe.

At 54 you should probably keep a meaningful portion of your assets in “safe” investments (cash/government bonds).
I disagree. We don't have the OP's overall financial picture but he is most likely looking at a full state pension and a mortgage paid off so basic shelter and needs are covered. The life expectancy of a 54-year old Irish man is 28 according to the CSO and that is likely to be revised up. Over the course of three decades it's highly unlikely that stocks/bonds will outperform equities.

That's not to say that a larger cash/bonds share makes sense closer to or after retirement. But at 54 it's still not old enough to be that conservative.
 
You won't get income tax relief whether you put your funds either in an ETF or your pension fund where you've already maxed out contributons.

So your only choice is regarding what tax you'll pay in future. For me, no CGT plus 25% tax-free withdrawal after 60 beats deemed disposable at 41% in any universe.

With an ETF you pay deemed disposal after 7 years, with your pension fund your returns are not subject to CGT and you can withdraw 25% tax free on retirement. I am not sure what the appeal of the ETF is.

Am I missing something?
I don't think you've fully thought this through. Access to capital is the missing something.

If the OP took the pension route with the €100k net income and continued maxing contributions for the next 8 years, there is a real possibility that the pot would be ~€1-1.1m assuming a very modest growth of 3%.

Only the first €800k is tax free so on the next €200-300k, they will pay 20%. Averaged on the whole pot, that is 5-5.5% on the lumpsum.

If the original €100k grew to €125k in that time, the OP could withdraw €25k net of tax as a lumpsum. That leaves a pot of ~€94k. To access the remaining €94k, it would all have to be taxed at ~50% as income.

So you have put €100k in and can only get €72k out. Alternatively, with the ETF route, the OP pays 41% on the gain of €25k. In this scenario, they have access to ~€115k in 8 years

I don't think it makes any sense to contribute net income to a pension pot especially when the pot will be big and tax heavily on withdrawal
 
Only the first €800k is tax free so on the next €200-300k, they will pay 20%. Averaged on the whole pot, that is 5-5.5% on the lumpsum.
Thanks I hadn't considered that aspect.

So contributing above tax-relieved limits only makes sense if pension pot is unlikely to exceed €800k and also if OP has headroom in the amount of lump-sum they expect to draw down.
 
So contributing above tax-relieved limits only makes sense if pension pot is unlikely to exceed €800k and also if OP has headroom in the amount of lump-sum they expect to draw down.
Reopening an old thread to see if this advice still stands?

My wife wants to retire at 50, 8 years from now. She has a pension pot of 125k, invested in a passive global equity fund. She's adding 23k p.a. to it (increasing in line with pay inflation) meaning she should have 500k by the time retirement comes along (subject to market conditions). So 125k TFLS & 15k p.a. from an ARF thereafter.

We're in a position to double the size of her pot using post-tax savings. Meaning a fund of ~750k by age 50, TFLS of 187.5k & 22.5k p.a. from an ARF. The alternative is an accumulating passive ETF which might get us to 180-190k in 8 years, after the 41% is paid. Nothing guaranteed of course!
 
Reopening an old thread to see if this advice still stands?
What you're referring to is an opinion rather than generally accepted advice. In my own opinion there's no reason not to accumulate a pension of more than €800K just because the maximum tax free lump sum is €200K. There is lots of discussion in other existing threads about this and why it may make sense to keep building even up to the €2M-€2.15M amount.
 
Given it's highly unlikely her pot will be bigger than 800k by 50, even if we bumped it up now, the main question is if it makes sense using after-tax income to fund a pension. I would never have thought so before reading this thread...
 
Pro: you get the benefit of tax-free growth within the fund.

Con: eight years is a very short period for equities and you may have negative or trivial returns.

Finally it’s hard to receive or give good advice with limited information like this. I suggest a money makeover.
 
Con: eight years is a very short period for equities and you may have negative or trivial returns.
The alternative approach with an ETF would have similar risk, and in any event, the intention would be to leave this pot in equities indefinitely. If the market was really in the doldrums, she could always defer dipping into it, we should have cash reserves built up to cover that contingency.

A MM is a good suggestion, as a preview it looks like we should be comfortable by then, no debt/mortgage & my pension is well funded, so the decision purely is about what will leave us better off financially.
 
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