Complicated situation re Aunt with Fair Deal

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Confused 101

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My unmarried/ childless 87 yr old Aunt is currently in a nursing home after suffering a stroke. Prior to this she was showing signs of early dementia and the stroke appears to have accelerated the dementia. She is unable to go home as she lives alone so the only option is for her to remain in the nursing home. Fair deal scheme will have to be availed of and thats where our problem arises.

We believe my aunt has very little money. She was carer to my grandparents when they were alive and lived on a non contributory pension since they died. She only ever had the odd cleaning job. Her nieces and nephews would contribute to buy her heating oil etc. She would constantly complain about lack of money so without access to her accounts we are reasonably sure she has no large bank balance. She does however own a valuable property probably worth about €1M. She announced 3 years ago that she was leaving this house to her nephew who has always lived abroad. This was an odd choice but all her nieces and nephews in Ireland respected her choice and respected her for making this known within the family.

So she is unable to deal with the Fair deal application herself. We have reached out to her chosen nephew abroad and he has refused to deal with this or come and visity her. I have dealt with the fair deal process before for another elderly uncle and became his care representative and took responsibility for the debt incurred. I had no problem doing this as I knew he had the means to discharge any costs incurred, falling due after his death. In my aunts case I am very reluctant to take responsibility for anything as Im concerned I may be left responsible for any debts left. We strongly suspect that if she died this nephew wouldnt even come to the funeral and that he is also executor of her will.

I have gone to the Fair deal office and they were not very helpful and just said we need to get the information in to them. I had an off the record chat with a Solicitor friend and he advised that no solicitor is interested in the legal processes around this since new procedures came through. He advised me to stay well away from the situation and do nothing.

My questions are:

  1. If no documents are filed with the Fair deal Office can they throw out my Aunt from the Nursing Home?
  2. If upon my aunts death, debts are owed for nursing home, funeral expenses etc, is my Aunts sole benificary ( her nephew abroad )liable for these debts? We suspect he wont sell the property - he will just leave it empty for a few years. Can he say there is no money in the estate or can he be forced to sell the property?

I want my Aunt to be cared for properly but I am concerned that I may be liable for the debts if I take responsibility. Its a bit of a mess.
 
Confused 101 said:
can they throw out my Aunt from the Nursing Home
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Until she is assessed as being able to care for herself and live alone, she will not be discharged.

Do you have access to her home / papers? Can you do a search for a will or even correspondence from her Solicitor. She may have expressed a wish, but that doesn't mean she carried it out.
 
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Hi Confused,

Welcome to AAM.

Very sorry to hear that you are in such a worrying situation whilst trying to do the best for your poor aunt.

If it were me, I think in light of your solicitor friend's advice, I would provide her nephew's details to the Fair Deal people, and the nursing homes administrators, and let them contact him. If she has a solicitor they should be able to provide a copy of her will to them to show who is inheriting the house and who is Executor.
 
DannyBoyD said:
Untill she is assessed as being able to care for herself and live alone, she will not be discharged.

Do you have access to her home / papers? Can you do a search for a will or even correspondence from her Solicitor. She may have expressed a wish, but that doesn't mean she carried it out.
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No I dont have access to her home or papers. The nephew abroad is the only person we are aware of that has a key to her home.
She did tell us about 3 years ago that the nephew ( when he last visited )and herself went to a solicitor and she made her will. We have no idea who her solicitor is. We dont know for sure who the executor is but suspect its the nephew . Nobody else has been made aware that they are executor of her will. I think she would have made them aware of this if it was anybody else.
 
So the nephew rocks up from abroad and she ends up making a will leaving him everything and potentially he is the executor as well. !

I think as a previous poster said, this needs to be plonked full and square on his desk and perhaps there needs to be a frank, cold and emotionless conversation with him about things. From his perspective, he is running the risk of being saddled with a lot of debt and other issues that as executor, he will have to close out when the time comes. He can't get the house and complete probate until he pays the bills and unless he has the cash to do so, he may need to sell the house to make those payments. So in terms of his inheritance, it's actually to his benefit that he gets up off his backside and signs the forms. If you want to offer to be the "local rep" who fills them in etc as a decent family member, by all means do so.

From a practical perspective, someone also needs to go into the house, clean out fridges, cupboards etc and check it on a regular basis. Were your aunt to survive for a number of years, there is a risk of the council slapping a derelict site order or compulsory purchase order on it, electricity etc being cut off. It may be time to scare the living daylights out of the nephew on points like that, as a loving cousin etc :)

It may also be worth having a conversation with your local health nurse around what happens if the bills are not being paid. They usually can give you a good steer
 
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Sue Ellen said:
Hi Confused,

Welcome to AAM.

Very sorry to hear that you are in such a worrying situation whilst trying to do the best for your poor aunt.

If it were me, I think in light of your solicitor friend's advice, I would provide her nephew's details to the Fair Deal people, and the nursing homes administrators, and let them contact him. If she has a solicitor they should be able to provide a copy of her will to them to show who is inheriting the house and who is Executor.
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Thank you for your reply. Yes I think providing my cousins contact details to the HSE/Fair deal is a good idea. Hopefully they would liaise with him.

We have no idea who her solicitor is. We do know that she did make a will and she told us that her home will be left to this nephew who lives abroad. She also mentioned that he intends not to sell the home.
 
thedaddyman said:
So the nephew rocks up from abroad and she ends up making a will leaving him everything and potentially he is the executor as well. !

I think as a previous poster said, this needs to be plonked full and square on his desk and perhaps there needs to be a frank, cold and emotionless conversation with him about things. From his perspective, he is running the risk of being saddled with a lot of debt and other issues that as executor, he will have to close out when the time comes. He can't get the house and complete probate until he pays the bills and unless he has the cash to do so, he may need to sell the house to make those payments. So in terms of his inheritance, it's actually to his benefit that he gets up off his backside and signs the forms. If you want to offer to be the "local rep" who fills them in etc as a decent family member, by all means do so.

From a practical perspective, someone also needs to go into the house, clean out fridges, cupboards etc and check it on a regular basis. Were your aunt to survive for a number of years, there is a risk of the council slapping a derelict site order or compulsory purchase order on it, electricity etc being cut off. It may be time to scare the living daylights out of the nephew on points like that, as a loving cousin etc :)

It may also be worth having a conversation with your local health nurse around what happens if the bills are not being paid. They usually can give you a good steer
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We have reached out to him and sent him info on Fair deal etc but he is politely dodging responsibility.:mad:

We have gone to the house and secured gates etc but we cant get inside and we are not going to break in. If anything happens the house its his problem - that how we see it.

Spoke to public health nurse and Fair deal office but nobody can advise what happens in this situation if noone accepts responsibility and signs the forms. I would imagine it happens from time to time when people have no relatives but nobody can tell me what to do.

I dont mind paying for her clothes, toiletries, prescriptions etc but in the circumstances I dont want to be left with the bills for the nursing home or funeral which could be substantial. Its my understanding if I did take responsibility and the executor did not pay the debts owed to the HSE within 12 months of death then I am responsible for paying them if I became her care representative - this is the situation I want to avoid.
 
I thought it was the estate that needed to pay the nursing home bill within 12 months of death, I had not realised about personal guarantee. What happened your aunt’s keys? Can you find them to get into the house. I would have no qualms about breaking a window to get in to getting the locks changed. Keep bills and send them to the nephew. Post him the new keys, after you make sure the house is clean and secure, no risk of flooding, etc. maybe the neighbours have a spare key?

You are definitely between a rock and a hard place, wanting to help your aunt but being at a risk of being severely out of pocket at the end. Best of luck.
 
I think you should pass this over to the medical social worker in the care home or hospital. They may be able to be set to as her Decision Making representative (DMR) in the absence of another (unless an EPOA is in place?). As it's going to be extremely complicated for you to manage without access to her accounts etc. as they need all that financial info to assess her contribution for the Fair Deal scheme etc.. they usually will also need property deeds as well to check the house is in her name. The social workers may have access to legal reps for this purpose. Best of luck!
 
Clamball said:
What happened your aunt’s keys? Can you find them to get into the house. I would have no qualms about breaking a window to get in to getting the locks changed. Keep bills and send them to the nephew. Post him the new keys, after you make sure the house is clean and secure, no risk of flooding, etc. maybe the neighbours have a spare key?
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Wouldn't do any of that type of stuff at all as could land yourself in serious trouble.
 
this happens often enough. a fair deal application will be made by social worker or somebody of that elk and the HSE /nursing home will do that. they will get their money in the end, and you don't have to worry about it per se. I've seen many a case where e.g. no bills are paid till the person has died, and then the HSE looks for all the money. Interest will be added after a year (i think) and backdated, and they will get their money from the estate / sale of the house. in all honesty, there will be onus on the beneficaires of the will to pay the bill. if that is the nephew, then he will be liable for all the fees, plus the bills that no one is paying.
No one can force you / other family to pay for the bills while she is there.
in reality, they will calculae what is owed them when she dies.
your aunt is not the first, nor the last to be admitted to a nursing home without family memembers having access to accounts, info etc.
in lots of cases, she will be made a ward of court, per se, to manager her affairs in the interim.
having seen it happen many times, my opinion is that you should be clear that the nephew is not involved, nor will be an advocate for your aunt; he will not be making any decisions, nor should he be listed as a contact. if he wants to do so, he can so this himself. this is the correct thing to do so that the can begin looking for appropriate representation. This is only to ensure her needs are best met and understood while she is alive.
being a point of contact for the nursing is ok, as long as you make it clear, you will not be dealing in any way with finances or anything.
for example, if she dies who will they call? if she is dying do you want to know?
if she falls in the middle of hte night, do you want to know?
if you don't leave your number, they will not call you.
If you have concerns about the house being a safety issue in time you can call the police or sherrif, and let them know it is a vacant property and food etc. is rotting inside.
they can access the house.

being a point of contact for nursing home is not a care representative.

I know of a case where a mother was admitted to a nursing home and the daughter wanted nothing to do with her, and the nursing home spent over two years trying to contact etc. when it was obvious the daughter would never do anything. Bills were being paid by direct debit, until her money was gone, and then the electricity, heat etc. was cut off. Rodents appears and the house fell to rack and ruin. It was broken into a good few times, per neighbour's reports.
the woman died alone, and Im sure the daughter got the house, but had a massive bill to pay, on top of a house that was rack and ruin.
 
Sorry I can't offer any help regarding the fair deal dilemma but one observation relating to the house.
If the nephew is the only one with keys and is abroad there is unlikely to be valid home insurance due to extended vacant periods. (Assume it does get renewed!) Not a risk I would take on a 1m property....
 
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the13thwarrior said:
this happens often enough. a fair deal application will be made by social worker or somebody of that elk and the HSE /nursing home will do that. they will get their money in the end, and you don't have to worry about it per se. I've seen many a case where e.g. no bills are paid till the person has died, and then the HSE looks for all the money. Interest will be added after a year (i think) and backdated, and they will get their money from the estate / sale of the house. in all honesty, there will be onus on the beneficaires of the will to pay the bill. if that is the nephew, then he will be liable for all the fees, plus the bills that no one is paying.
No one can force you / other family to pay for the bills while she is there.
in reality, they will calculae what is owed them when she dies.
your aunt is not the first, nor the last to be admitted to a nursing home without family memembers having access to accounts, info etc.
in lots of cases, she will be made a ward of court, per se, to manager her affairs in the interim.
having seen it happen many times, my opinion is that you should be clear that the nephew is not involved, nor will be an advocate for your aunt; he will not be making any decisions, nor should he be listed as a contact. if he wants to do so, he can so this himself. this is the correct thing to do so that the can begin looking for appropriate representation. This is only to ensure her needs are best met and understood while she is alive.
being a point of contact for the nursing is ok, as long as you make it clear, you will not be dealing in any way with finances or anything.
for example, if she dies who will they call? if she is dying do you want to know?
if she falls in the middle of hte night, do you want to know?
if you don't leave your number, they will not call you.
If you have concerns about the house being a safety issue in time you can call the police or sherrif, and let them know it is a vacant property and food etc. is rotting inside.
they can access the house.

being a point of contact for nursing home is not a care representative.

I know of a case where a mother was admitted to a nursing home and the daughter wanted nothing to do with her, and the nursing home spent over two years trying to contact etc. when it was obvious the daughter would never do anything. Bills were being paid by direct debit, until her money was gone, and then the electricity, heat etc. was cut off. Rodents appears and the house fell to rack and ruin. It was broken into a good few times, per neighbour's reports.
the woman died alone, and Im sure the daughter got the house, but had a massive bill to pay, on top of a house that was rack and ruin.
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Thank you so much for your response. It is so helpful.- Im relieved that I can be a contact for the nursing home without taking on the financial responsibility.
 
Might be worth doing some maths for the nephew as well. Were the aunt to live for another 5 years, then probably the debt to the nursing home will be in excess of €300k + any interest they or the state add on for late payment. Throw in solicitors costs, funeral costs etc and it's starting to head for €400k. He could offset a chunk of that by signing some forms. If he doesn't want to do so then make it clear it is going to be his issue to sort when the time is right.
 
Scoobydoobydoo said:
Sorry I can't offer any help regarding the fair deal dilemma but one observation relating to the house.
If the nephew is the only one with keys and is abroad there is unlikely to be valid home insurance due to extended vacant periods. (Assume it does that renewed!) Not a risk I would take on a 1m property....
Click to expand...
Im not really concerned about the house just that my Aunt is taken care of. He can worry about the house and the insurance.
 
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