The First Crusade had little to do with Muslim Expansionism as it wasn't expanding at the time, indeed it was in the middle of a multi faceted civil war. The argument that the Christians should reclaim Jerusalem was over 300 years late. It was about reasserting the influence of Rome over the Church in Europe. Pope Urban the Second did an excellent job on that front.I don't really know what you're getting at here. Christianity today still has a concept of just war, so which fundamental issue are you talking about? The Crusades in general featured some regrettable excesses but the original motivation for the first crusade -- combatting violent Islamic expansionism -- is probably still sound.
Okay, so you haven't addressed the issue of the significant change on the substance of trans-substantiation. Rather you have attacked a source who quoted the two popes in question. I'm in full agreement on Evangelical Christians, along with most religion.I thought I'd split the answer to this one out here as it's a total diversion. With respect, you really are clutching at straws here. You didn't bother providing a link to support your quotes but it's easily findable. Your extract is from [broken link removed], an American fundamentalist pastor of the evangelical Baptist tradition. It's reproduced on several fundamentalist, mainly Baptist websites. I'm going to guess you don't know a whole lot about evangelical fundamentalism. It has more and less moderate strains, but this is very much the less moderate variety -- the same one from which Ian Paisley Snr took most of his inspiration. Whereas Catholics and some Evangelicals have arrived at joint declarations about the nature of salvation "by grace through faith", the truly diehard evangelicals still cling rigidly to the "solae" of the Reformation.
One can imagine the very title of the encyclical Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason) being a bit of a red rag to a bull for a sola fide fundamentalist ("salvation through faith alone"). But the specific complaint in your article is that in that encyclical the Pope cites Tradition in talking about the Eucharist, instead of "sola scriptura" ... only scripture. Never mind that the encyclical is extensively footnoted, like all encyclicals, to demonstrate continuity of doctrine with previous sources. Costella's complaint is that the RCC hasn't changed its theology which is why evangelicals should stay away from it, exactly the opposite of what you claim. This is hardly even worth debating (although we can if you insist) -- but you should find some sources other than the crazed regressive fundamentalist Catholic-hating ones still occupying the battlefields of the Reformation. Or at least be a little bit more discerning when you google "has the church changed its doctrines".
The issue that changes was that the Pope said that all who fought in that Holy War would gain a place in heaven and all their previous sins would be forgiven. Is that still the position of the RC Church?
Okay, so you haven't addressed the issue of the significant change on the substance of trans-substantiation. Rather you have attacked a source who quoted the two popes in question.
When did you make that point? How is it hard to see the link between people and structures?No, but now you've circled back to the point I made. Mary's "empire of misogyny" quip is aimed at certain people within the church, not "structures".
I think you are letting your own bias colour your interpretation of her position.I think you're coming from the same place as Mary on this (but correct me if I'm wrong). As far as I can see, her position is that the very existence of the exclusively male catholic clergy is in diametric opposition to any notion of equality. In other words, for equality to prevail, the exclusively male orders must cease to exist. No, I don't share that view. And I reiterate my point that Mary's immoderate "empire of misogyny" barb is intended to convey that anyone who disagrees with her does so out of a hatred of women. I still say that's a stupid line to take (though Mary is hardly a stupid person, so perhaps it's more malicious than that).
So do I.I don't think I've said anything less moderate than Mary did, but I'll admit to enjoying a good argument.
For those engaging in wars?Yes. The pope is allowed to grant indulgences. Nothing changed there.
A change in the stance on the nature of trans-substantiation isn't a change in doctrine?Now you have me confused. I addressed your sources. At least I think I did, because you didn't provide any reference so I had to Google it. You also provided a long quote without saying which bit you think represents a "significant change on the substance of trans-substantiation". I'd be happy to address it but you'll have to be clear on who you're quoting and what you're alleging. There's certainly nothing in what you provided that suggests anything like a doctrinal change.
When did you make that point? How is it hard to see the link between people and structures?
I think you are letting your own bias colour your interpretation of her position.
(Papal indulgences) for those engaging in wars?
A change in the stance on the nature of trans-substantiation isn't a change in doctrine?
This is like discussing evolution with a creationist.
I’ll leave it there. I’m surprised and disappointed that anyone in a modern society can hold the views you hold.
Yeah, let's jump back on the rhetorical bandwagon before anyone is forced into a reasonable debate.
A reasonable debate requires only reason and respectful engagement.
I guess though if everyone accepts before you start that this is not reality, then you have to agree on the 'deck of cards' you're going to play with in this jousting encounter, or someone will just keep pulling imaginary aces which cant be ruled in our out, and isn't life too short...You're wrong of course. There are entire debating societies devoted to the works of Tolkien where reasonable people debate issues to do with the Council of Elrond. Any topic -- from fiction to dream interpretation to infinite dimensional space -- can be debated reasonably by reasonable people. The subject doesn't have to be "real", "true" or mutually accepted. Anyone with an ounce of sense and integrity understands this, unless they're just out to pour scorn on their pet dislikes while pretending to have the intellectual high ground.
I guess though if everyone accepts before you start that this is not reality, then you have to agree on the 'deck of cards' you're going to play with in this jousting encounter, or someone will just keep pulling imaginary aces which cant be ruled in our out, and isn't life too short...
Or maybe the person you're playing with isn't playing with a full deck.....
This isn't a college debating society, the preserve of the verbose where playing to the crowd is the objective rather than understanding the perspective of the other party. We are not children in a college debating society; this is a discussion forum. Willfully ignoring the points made by other contributors is not condusive to a constructive discussion.You're wrong of course. There are entire debating societies devoted to the works of Tolkien where reasonable people debate issues to do with the Council of Elrond. Any topic -- from fiction to dream interpretation to infinite dimensional space -- can be debated reasonably by reasonable people. The subject doesn't have to be "real", "true" or mutually accepted. Anyone with an ounce of sense and integrity understands this, unless they're just out to pour scorn on their pet dislikes while pretending to have the intellectual high ground.
Willfully ignoring the points made by other contributors is not condusive to a constructive discussion.
And I can't believe that you don't understand the points I'm making and so conclude that you are being deliberately obtuse or are so biased against Mary and/or the feminist/equality agenda that you are unable to see the point she is making. Therefore the comparison to discussing evolution with a creationist, your academic qualifications notwithstanding.... which is why I asked you for clarifications on your points that I didn't understand. Would still be interested to hear them.
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