Class S PRSI from ARF for JSB

Sarenco said:
But the loss of self-employment has occurred!
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What loss of self employment? The OP had a JB claim paid for loss of self employment - presumably for 39 weeks. Then there is a new JB claim 12 months later. What loss of self-employment occurred in the interim?
 
@Ruffian

I didn’t say there was a loss of self-employment in the interim.

There was a loss of self-employment in advance of the initial claim that is ongoing.
 
@S class

Would the fact that repeat claims can be made in respect of a (single) loss of self employment not tend to suggest that there is no requirement to re-gain and re-lose self employment in order to requalify for JBSE?
 
Sarenco said:
didn’t say there was a loss of self-employment in the interim.

There was a loss of self-employment in advance of the initial claim that is ongoing.
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Then refer back to 68 H2a:

Where a person entitled to jobseeker’s benefit (self-employed) has exhausted their right to jobseeker’s benefit (self-employed), he or she shall requalify for that benefit when—
(a) he or she has qualifying contributions in respect of 52 self-employment contribution weeks since the last week for which he or she was entitled to that benefit, and
(b) a minimum of 12 months has elapsed since the last week for which he or she was entitled to that benefit.

The initial claim was exhausted. There were not 52 self employment contribution weeks subsequently (and, before we go around in circles, 52 Class S contributions from an ARF does not count!)
 
Are you suggesting that an ex self employed ARF holder can keep claiming JBSE every second year without having carried out any actual self employment in the interim periods. This is ridiculous.
 
@Ruffian

Why do Class S PRSI contributions on drawdowns from an ARF not qualify?

They constitute “qualifying contributions “ for the purposes of the State pension so what disqualifies them for the purposes of the JBSE?

Can you point to anything in the legislation or regulations to support your argument?
 
@S class

I agree that would be the ridiculous conclusion of what I’m arguing but, hey, I don’t make the rules.

The legislation is quite explicit about the conditions for re-qualifying for JBSE.

The legislation does not require a substantial loss of an additional self-employment subsequent to the original claim.

You’ve made that point repeatedly without pointing to anything of relevance.
 
Thanks everyone for all comments. I'm reassured that I'm not the only one who's confused by it all.

I do have over 52 weeks Class S from my ARF since my last JSB claim ended, so that's not the issue, and it is over 12 months since my last JBSE ended. It's only whether or not ARF PRSI Class S contributions count.

I think not though!
 
Sarenco said:
Why do Class S PRSI contributions on drawdowns from an ARF not qualify?

They constitute “qualifying contributions “ for the purposes of the State pension so what disqualifies them for the purposes of the JBSE?

Can you point to anything in the legislation or regulations to support your argument?
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Because 68H2a (ie, the legislation) says that to requalify the person needs 52 self- employment contributions. It does not say Class S contributions. It is quite clear.
Class S contributions from an ARF is not self employment. Just because such contributions count towards the State Pension or over-65 payment does not make an ARF self employment.

I am not sure if you are actually being deliberately obtuse!
 
@Ruffian, @Gettinolder

“Self-Employed Contributions” are defined in Section 6 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 (the Act) as contributions in respect of self-employed contributors.

“Self-Employed Contributors” are defined in Section 20 of the Act as every person who, being over the age of 16 years and under pensionable age who has reckonable income or reckonable emoluments, shall be a self-employed contributor for the purposes of the Act, regardless of the fact that they might also be employed.

Would drawdowns from an ARF constitute “reckonable income” (ie taxable income)? They sure would.

I can’t see any reason why PRSI contributions on drawdowns from an ARF would not constitute qualifying, self-employed contributions.
 
Sarenco said:
I can’t see any reason why PRSI contributions on drawdowns from an ARF would not constitute qualifying, self-employed contributions.
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They are known as Sarenco's Contributions. They don't count as self-employment when you are claiming Jobseeker's Benefit and they do count as self-employment when you are out of claim.

And if anyone claims that they understand this it proves that they really don't!
 
They do count as self employment when the JBSE claim ends.

The person is now a self employed person and the ARF is his new self employment. This self employment will continue in existence until his ARF drawdowns go below 5k per year.

Sarenco is trying to argue that after a period of 12 months, this self employed person can then revert back to his previous ceased self employment and make a second claim for JBSE based on being unemployed while he is actually still in self employment.
 
That time frame could allow a possible second 9 months or a second shorter term claim, depending on the date of original loss of self employment.

The poster should appeal the DSP decision.


"the loss occurred not earlier than the first day of the
second last complete calendar year before the year in
which his or her application for jobseeker’s benefit (self-
employed) is made"
 
Agreed.

Assuming the OP’s usual self-employed business closed on or after 1 January 2023, the OP would appear to meet all the requirements of Section 68H(2) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended, to requalify for JBSE.

I would definitely appeal the decision of the deciding officer to the Social Welfare Appeals Office.

It’s worth noting that you must appeal within 21 days of the decision letter so don’t hang around too long.
 
@Sarenco

Thanks for clarifying that no subsequent loss of earnings are necessary for JBSE. I had assumed that the wording in the guidelines "when that self-employment ends" was referring to a new period of employment.

"A person who is self-employed and becomes unemployed may make a repeat claim for JBSE when that self-employment ends."
 
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Well, that’s just my reading of the wording of the legislation, maybe the SWAO will take a different view.
 
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