wavejumper
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So UB were correct on july 27th, 8 months. it is AIB who said the closing date was Feb 18th but I think the start of the mortgage was in March 2003.
Clarification of the Ulster Bank to AIB repayment calculation issue
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
- Start date
I suspect incorrect dara shared, or used without validation of a common understanding.
A maturity date of 18th February makes no sense if your repayments are made on 1st.
AIB have calculated repayments to clear balance by February, which is what their system is set up to do.
It's a mess up, due to differences between systems. UB probably calculated on a number of repayments remaining, rather than a fixed maturity date.
No excuse for it as part of such a large scale data migration.
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newirishman
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Whatever about possible data migration issues and there probably is some systemic issue involved here, this did not come to light yesterday.
These letters are not created and delivered at a press of a button. They go through UAT and a huge amount of quality assurance testing. There are multiple sign offs required for even letters of this standardised nature to be signed off.
There is zero chance that those letters were released with incorrect calculations and yet customer service staff seem to have been informed about what to say if customers rang up. AIB were 100% confident in what they were doing. Which means it wasn't a mistake. At best it was incompetence.
Nowhere on the letter does it mention anything about issues around maturity dates or schedules. Instead when people rang up, they were told their schedules were wrong. Some poor customer service agent didn't make that answer up. That was the response signed off by AIB but today we are told 'it was all a mistake'. It doesn't stack up.
If there is an issue with repayment dates and maturity dates, it shouldn't just impact mortgages maturing over the next few months like AIB claim. I also don't know why it would impact someone who paid extra off their mortgage like AIB claim.
I still maintain the whole thing stinks. AIB had obviously identified an issue and sent out letters and updated their call centre staff. As soon as they even got wind of an issue, they should have notifed customers. They didn't. They did what banks do and waited until customers were forced to complain and then today after an article appears, they put something up on their website.
When were Central Bank informed? I bet it wasn't yesterday or today. Willing to bet they have known about this for days.
These letters are not created and delivered at a press of a button. They go through UAT and a huge amount of quality assurance testing. There are multiple sign offs required for even letters of this standardised nature to be signed off.
There is zero chance that those letters were released with incorrect calculations and yet customer service staff seem to have been informed about what to say if customers rang up. AIB were 100% confident in what they were doing. Which means it wasn't a mistake. At best it was incompetence.
Nowhere on the letter does it mention anything about issues around maturity dates or schedules. Instead when people rang up, they were told their schedules were wrong. Some poor customer service agent didn't make that answer up. That was the response signed off by AIB but today we are told 'it was all a mistake'. It doesn't stack up.
If there is an issue with repayment dates and maturity dates, it shouldn't just impact mortgages maturing over the next few months like AIB claim. I also don't know why it would impact someone who paid extra off their mortgage like AIB claim.
I still maintain the whole thing stinks. AIB had obviously identified an issue and sent out letters and updated their call centre staff. As soon as they even got wind of an issue, they should have notifed customers. They didn't. They did what banks do and waited until customers were forced to complain and then today after an article appears, they put something up on their website.
When were Central Bank informed? I bet it wasn't yesterday or today. Willing to bet they have known about this for days.
That’s my contention.
They knew about it, at least, before 28 July - the date they sent me a letter informing me of the higher repayment.
You all have too high regard on the banks and central back.
AIB hasn't a clue about this until they had multiple customers contact them.
Ulster bank hadnt a clue until some of those customers then contacted them after contacting AIB and the central back wasnt informed until AIB decided that it thought Ulster Bank made an error.
AIB hasn't a clue about this until they had multiple customers contact them.
Ulster bank hadnt a clue until some of those customers then contacted them after contacting AIB and the central back wasnt informed until AIB decided that it thought Ulster Bank made an error.
They didn’t know they increased repayment amounts by multiples of what they previously were???
How is this even possible.
The letter is a Standard system generated letter due to a rate change. This letter has been generated many times over the last 30 years.
murphystown
New Member
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I firmly believe AIB thought they’d get away with this. The anxiety & distress they have caused is disgraceful. The whole thing stinks like you say. They should be made compensate those they upset.
These letters are tested every single time and go through an entire sign off process. They are not just automatically generated and sent out without human checks.
The only possible excuse is thar they were wrong for small subset but again that doesn't explain why people ringing AIB for the past week were told there was an issue. Only for AIB to turn around after published article to say oops, the letter is wrong.
Yes but how does it incorporate the increased amounts above those provided for by the interest rate increase alone? That hasn’t been done automatically for 30 years
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Brendan Burgess
Founder
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This is what I think has happened. There is no conspiracy. It is just incompetence or a mistake.
1) In calculating the repayment AIB used some wrong data - looks like the wrong maturity date as Red explains.
2) They sent out the letters
3) They first heard about it when people started ringing.
4) They should have said "That is odd - we will investigate it" and then said that to everyone else who rang.
5) But instead, they said "Ulster Bank must have been wrong".
Don't assume a huge technical competence in AIB. On the Prevailing Rate case, they insisted that they were paying compound interest on the compensation and I was so gobsmacked that I could not get it across to them that they were not. Then when they realised that they were not, they said that simple interest was in line with the Ombudsman's decision.
The transfer of these mortgages is a huge operation.
The guys who knew how to do things were probably on holidays or working from home.
Brendan
1) In calculating the repayment AIB used some wrong data - looks like the wrong maturity date as Red explains.
2) They sent out the letters
3) They first heard about it when people started ringing.
4) They should have said "That is odd - we will investigate it" and then said that to everyone else who rang.
5) But instead, they said "Ulster Bank must have been wrong".
Don't assume a huge technical competence in AIB. On the Prevailing Rate case, they insisted that they were paying compound interest on the compensation and I was so gobsmacked that I could not get it across to them that they were not. Then when they realised that they were not, they said that simple interest was in line with the Ombudsman's decision.
The transfer of these mortgages is a huge operation.
The guys who knew how to do things were probably on holidays or working from home.
Brendan
Brendan Burgess
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From Charlie Weston
www.independent.ie
AIB has performed a U-turn after a banking blunder that would have seen homeowners’ monthly repayments increase by up to €600 a month.
The bank now says that there will be “no change to their monthly repayments”.
AIB had mistakenly told the mortgage customers – who were on tracker loans that were sold to AIB when Ulster Bank exited the market – they were paying too little, leaving them to face huge increases in their monthly costs.
But in an updated statement, on foot of revelations in the Irish Independent, AIB apologised to customers and said it would now “take all corrective action necessary to resolve the issue”.
The bank said it had made a mistake and there would be no increased payments, in contrast to letters sent to some customers.
...
“We want to reassure those customers that they do not need to take any action. We will issue revised letters with corrected payment amounts in the coming weeks.
“Customers will not face repayments greater than they had originally expected following the ECB increase.
AIB U-turn after blunder over hikes to mortgage repayments for former Ulster Bank customers
AIB has performed a U-turn after a banking blunder that would have seen homeowners’ monthly repayments increase by up to €600 a month.
www.independent.ie
AIB has performed a U-turn after a banking blunder that would have seen homeowners’ monthly repayments increase by up to €600 a month.
The bank now says that there will be “no change to their monthly repayments”.
AIB had mistakenly told the mortgage customers – who were on tracker loans that were sold to AIB when Ulster Bank exited the market – they were paying too little, leaving them to face huge increases in their monthly costs.
But in an updated statement, on foot of revelations in the Irish Independent, AIB apologised to customers and said it would now “take all corrective action necessary to resolve the issue”.
The bank said it had made a mistake and there would be no increased payments, in contrast to letters sent to some customers.
...
“We want to reassure those customers that they do not need to take any action. We will issue revised letters with corrected payment amounts in the coming weeks.
“Customers will not face repayments greater than they had originally expected following the ECB increase.
Brendan, the wrong date would impact every single mortgage. People change repayment days to different day to maturity date all the time. Very few mortgages will actually match for last repayment date and legal maturity date.
AIB are saying this only impacts mortgages maturing over next couple of months or where people have paid extra off their mortgage. Again doesn't make sense why only these mortgages used 'wrong data'.
The letters were sent out with increases to monthly repayments that went beyond the 25bps ECB rate change. This would have flagged in AIB. A system change would have been needed for that. Repayments don't just change without being flagged. AIB would have seen that people's repayments were changing or there was an issue with stub periods at the end of mortgages. Its a basic integrity check carried out every single night during batches.
When people rang up, they were immediately told this was related to Ulster Bank. Not days later but straight away. They were reasy for the question. Before a response like that is given out by customer service staff, it would have investigated and signed off by very senior people in AIB.
People have been ringing AIB since the end of July when these letters were sent and nothing but silence. It took one article in the Independent and within hours, AIB come out saying it was all a mistake. It wasn't a mistake. The central bank were informed of this issue well before yesterday.
There is an issue. And it doesn't matter if fault lies with Ulster Bank, AIB or is an issue around data migration. AIB are obviously now going to take the cost but that wasn't their initial thought process.
AIB knew what they doing when they sent their letters. If that hadn't been publicised yesterday, there would still be no statement from AIB.
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Last point on this. We are still at a stage where a bank spent over 10 days telling people the bank was right. Story breaks in Irish Independent and within 3 hours, there are statements from AIB and Central Bank. Within 2 hours of that, AIB come out and say it was a terrible mistake. We will fix it so let's move on.
The culture of banks and indeed the central bank is still to treat customers with contempt. It shouldn't need Charlie Weston or Brendan Burgess to make noise before we hear statements about a possible issue or genuine mistake. It's a real 'let's see how many people complain' rather than 'let's do the right thing' attitude. And it stinks.
The culture of banks and indeed the central bank is still to treat customers with contempt. It shouldn't need Charlie Weston or Brendan Burgess to make noise before we hear statements about a possible issue or genuine mistake. It's a real 'let's see how many people complain' rather than 'let's do the right thing' attitude. And it stinks.
Yep. I first found about it myself when the letter from AIB arrived, with a significant increase in the repayment.
I had to ring AIB to query it, it seems outrageous that they did this at all, I well expect they thought they'd get away with it.
But they'll keep doing things like this until the consequences are more than a slap on the wrist, along with a sham apology that no one believes is sincere.
That’s pretty much the whole story summarised.
thedaddyman
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Why on earth would working from home have anything to do with this? The world has changed, you don't need to be in an office surrounded by people to be competent, or for that matter incompetent anymore. Working from home gets used as a lazy excuse for when things go wrong and it is total garbage.
Having said that, I largely agree with the rest of what you are saying here. This is pure and utter incompetence by AIB coupled with a failure in Governance and that is what is the bigger issue here. Once AIB thought they had an issue, was it escalated properly internally (sounds like it wasn't)?.. Did they reach out to Ulster to ask some questions (again, sounds like they didn't)? Did it flag any alarms around the AIB regarding the price they had paid Ulster (sounds like it didn't). So a fundamental break down in escalation and crisis management coupled with an inability to calculate mortgage interest rates and repayment rate.
Holidays may have contributed to this but it also raises concern about succession planning and training in the bank.
However the real issue now is how can any AIB mortgage holder have any faith in how their mortgage is being managed?
Glad I came here first after getting home from holidays myself to be "greeted" by this disgraceful letter. I have a tracker due to mature at the end of next year. The last 0.25% ECB interest rate saw my payment go from €499.04 to €500.04. I was pretty surprised to see that AIB wanted to increase that to €554.43 for the same 0.25%, a 54 fold increase compared to Ulster Bank! I was all set for a telephone battle to commence. I also fail to see how this could have something to do with wrong dates because it seems only to affect mortgages maturing in the near future. An outstanding balance calculation date error would surely have applied to all mortgage holders equally? The alarm bells should have been sounding and AIB should have been checking their figures CAREFULLY rather than rushing to falsely blame UB. I also can't imagine that customer service agents could have been instructed to blame UB without it being signed off from fairly high up in AIB.
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Sconeandjam
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Both banks must be messing things up. We have a tracker that has not moved to AIB yet from Ulster Bank.
I received a letter from Ulster Bank saying the tracker mortgage was increasing by 32cent instead of €9.00 due to the ECB increasing by .025.. I rang them saying the calculation on their letter was wrong. The agent did not know anything about it or any error in the letters. I am obviously not the only one that received a letter like this going to show a shortfall when the mortgage moved to AIB. They said they would look into it.
I received a letter from Ulster Bank saying the tracker mortgage was increasing by 32cent instead of €9.00 due to the ECB increasing by .025.. I rang them saying the calculation on their letter was wrong. The agent did not know anything about it or any error in the letters. I am obviously not the only one that received a letter like this going to show a shortfall when the mortgage moved to AIB. They said they would look into it.