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CF83 Changing from Class 3 to Class 2
- Thread starter Star10
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Hi There,
Just in case this helps someone, see attached the rules that HMRC sent me relating to Class 2 or Class 3 NICs.
I applied for Class 2, but was rejected due to the attached reason, 2nd attachment.
I was accepted to pay Class 3.
I only worked for 1 year in UK and received an additional 3 free years, so I wasn't really surprised that I only got Class 3,
Mick
Just in case this helps someone, see attached the rules that HMRC sent me relating to Class 2 or Class 3 NICs.
I applied for Class 2, but was rejected due to the attached reason, 2nd attachment.
I was accepted to pay Class 3.
I only worked for 1 year in UK and received an additional 3 free years, so I wasn't really surprised that I only got Class 3,
Mick
Interesting, did you work in the UK before 2010 or were you there when you were 16-18 in that period?
The letter still seems badly worded as it is either 3 years residence or 3 years contributions as has been well established.
The outcome may be the same but it's not worded well.
If you were there before 2010 and were 16-18 in that period then maybe you have grounds for appeal but it has been hard to tie down exactly how those "free" contributions work
Always worth appealing, it'll only cost a stamp.
As per @DannyBoyD , see also my comments in previous reply to you, this depends on your age but from what you have said you were in the UK before 2010 and 16-18 in that time. It's possible that helps but you have to make the appeal to see. There is a bit of chat about these contributions for 16-18 year old's in other posts so very hard to say but again a chunk of a UK pension on top of any Irish one for the price of a stamp...
outofmymind
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Mmmm. Looking at that document it says that for both Class 2 and Class 3 the pension can be paid anywhere in the world but that the amount of pension 'does not normally go up when the rates increase in the UK' so this suggests that the 'real' value of the UK pension will reduce over time. Looking at this site: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/rates-of-state-pension it says that there are increases if living in the EEA and various other places. So is it that the portion of pension paid as NICs when living in the UK goes up, but the proportion from the voluntary contributions does not go up? Or is 'normally' referring to the great majority of countries in the world other than the list of countries on the website?
I noticed xtrapension video pretty much said the same thing, 2006 to 2024 is what matters. I have two questions if people dont mind answering to figure out my situation. Since 2006 I have a mixture of work, no work, social welfare credits towards my Irish pension and jobseekers benefit.
First do you pay class 3 for years you were in receipt of credits and jobseekers and not working.
Second. Can you choose to opt only for the years that are class 2 and pay those contributions. Not pay for the years that are class 3.
In other words if 2006 to 2009 is class 2 but 2010 to 2015 is class 3 can you skip those years that are class 3.
Thanks for the help.
First do you pay class 3 for years you were in receipt of credits and jobseekers and not working.
Second. Can you choose to opt only for the years that are class 2 and pay those contributions. Not pay for the years that are class 3.
In other words if 2006 to 2009 is class 2 but 2010 to 2015 is class 3 can you skip those years that are class 3.
Thanks for the help.
"was accepted to pay Class 3.
I only worked for 1 year in UK and received an additional 3 free years, so I wasn't really surprised that I only got Class 3,"
I think you need 3 full years of work contributions in UK, and then a work record in another European country after leaving UK to get class 2.
I also did not have the full 3 year work record in UK, I had 2 years of UK contributions and was also credited with 3 years juvenile credits like most. I also had a full work record on leaving UK, I was hoping that this might also get me to class 2. However I was basically told that my prsi record was used to get me to the initial 3 year basic qualification and that I did not qualify for class 2 despite my work record on leaving UK.
Therefore I think class2 only applies once you have fulfilled the initial 3 year full work record in UK, if you don't have that you won't qualify for class 2.
Unless someone has had a different experience?
I only worked for 1 year in UK and received an additional 3 free years, so I wasn't really surprised that I only got Class 3,"
I think you need 3 full years of work contributions in UK, and then a work record in another European country after leaving UK to get class 2.
I also did not have the full 3 year work record in UK, I had 2 years of UK contributions and was also credited with 3 years juvenile credits like most. I also had a full work record on leaving UK, I was hoping that this might also get me to class 2. However I was basically told that my prsi record was used to get me to the initial 3 year basic qualification and that I did not qualify for class 2 despite my work record on leaving UK.
Therefore I think class2 only applies once you have fulfilled the initial 3 year full work record in UK, if you don't have that you won't qualify for class 2.
Unless someone has had a different experience?
^ that does seem to be the practice but doesn't actually accord with the rules they've published, class 3 is not a runner up prize although they often seem to treat it that way. It should be - does the person qualify to make voluntary contributions at all? If yes, then at what class.
Unless of course they are automatically giving class 3 based on further EU contributions but again this seems related to whether you can make contributions or not. But the wording is quite unclear.
Unless of course they are automatically giving class 3 based on further EU contributions but again this seems related to whether you can make contributions or not. But the wording is quite unclear.
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Yes they don't say that, but I still needed my prsi record to qualify to pay at class 3, without that I wouldn't have qualified.
However on the first letter declining my application they said I maybe able to fulfill the 3 year minimum requirement based on the social security contributions in another EEA country aswell as Turkey.
However some people with barely 2 years contributions are qualifying depending on how many years their contributions straddled across. Even a small number of contributions in one year seems to get them a full year which seems strange
Interesting, my read is the EU contributions help to qualify for voluntary contributions but they say "previously" to UK (as is the case for residence thus qualifying a huge number of Irish). The class then is a separate issue (hence looking for PRSI records), could be wrong though as the wording on this (and a lot of these issues) is far from clear.
@mmclo this is the wording
"You do not appear to have had 3 years of continuous residence in UK and our records show that you have not paid 3 years of UK NI contributions.
If you have resided and worked in another EEA country or in Turkey, this can count towards the residence condition. In order for us to consider any periods or employment in another EEA country we would need a record of this."
it doesn't say though whether this record is added to the UK record, obviously you can't qualify based solely on your work record in another EEA country, how the EEA work record is joined to the UK contributions is not explained
"You do not appear to have had 3 years of continuous residence in UK and our records show that you have not paid 3 years of UK NI contributions.
If you have resided and worked in another EEA country or in Turkey, this can count towards the residence condition. In order for us to consider any periods or employment in another EEA country we would need a record of this."
it doesn't say though whether this record is added to the UK record, obviously you can't qualify based solely on your work record in another EEA country, how the EEA work record is joined to the UK contributions is not explained
The wording of at lot of their stuff is very bad. I would have thought if you don't meet the residence criteria *or* the 3 years contribution, you are not eligible to pay voluntary contributions.
If EU residence counts towards eligibility to pay them nearly every EU resident who made some contributions and got an NI number qualifies.
Then they would be class two for periods worked abroad post 2006 and class 3 when not working
Curious and curiouser!
If EU residence counts towards eligibility to pay them nearly every EU resident who made some contributions and got an NI number qualifies.
Then they would be class two for periods worked abroad post 2006 and class 3 when not working
Curious and curiouser!
but thats also not the case, I was told I did not qualify for class 2 because the 3 year minimum requirement was not fulfilled, also on another forum someone else was also told the same . To be honest I think this is not being explicitly stated that you can still qualify even if you don't have the full 3 years work contributions in UK but it will only be at class 3
That's fine but not clear from their official info. I don't have it handy but the main site and guidance doc puts the EU bit later as in "if you don't fulfill the above" that could be because the regime is different or else because they have to under EU law (pre Brexit) in terms of treating all EU workers the same but it wasn't so clear. It also emphasised "previously" and the need to have made an A1 contribution/s but was all over the place in terms of plain English, will post it here again soon
Even what they wrote to you is gobbledygook, in their online guidance they have seperate paragraphs on EU residency and EU contributions - in your letter they mix them together. Also we should remember there was previous advice on class 2 and class 3 that they had to withdraw and correct
Even what they wrote to you is gobbledygook, in their online guidance they have seperate paragraphs on EU residency and EU contributions - in your letter they mix them together. Also we should remember there was previous advice on class 2 and class 3 that they had to withdraw and correct
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From NI38 The Official "Guidance on Social Security Abroad"
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-ni38/guidance-on-social-security-abroad-ni38
Useful to read the EU bit in the overall context of class 2
Make of it what you will despite the rather poor structure and presentation
My emphasis at the end, and of course uses the word "may"
By any common understanding of English the vast bulk of people who worked for a while in the UK "lived" for 3 years in the EU before they arrived (unless they were working at 2.5 years old!) and many after working in the UK and this is just the residence clause (2a)
This does not seem to accord with the communication in post #35 where they again mix residence and work
The "may" could provide the discretion but it is under Class 2
The EU provisions are the same for class 3 but of course you do not have to have been working immediately before leaving the UK or be working when abroad.
***
You can pay Class 2 National Insurance contributions if you’re employed or self-employed abroad if:
(b) Before going abroad, you paid any of the following National Insurance:
If you lived or worked in an EU country, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland or Turkey, time spent there may help you to meet condition 2(a) or 2(b).
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-ni38/guidance-on-social-security-abroad-ni38
Useful to read the EU bit in the overall context of class 2
Make of it what you will despite the rather poor structure and presentation
My emphasis at the end, and of course uses the word "may"
By any common understanding of English the vast bulk of people who worked for a while in the UK "lived" for 3 years in the EU before they arrived (unless they were working at 2.5 years old!) and many after working in the UK and this is just the residence clause (2a)
This does not seem to accord with the communication in post #35 where they again mix residence and work
The "may" could provide the discretion but it is under Class 2
The EU provisions are the same for class 3 but of course you do not have to have been working immediately before leaving the UK or be working when abroad.
***
Class 2 National Insurance contributions
You may be able to pay Class 2 National Insurance contributions to help you qualify for contributory Employment and Support Allowance when you get back to the UK, as well as State Pension, Maternity Allowance and Bereavement Support Payment.You can pay Class 2 National Insurance contributions if you’re employed or self-employed abroad if:
- Immediately before going abroad, you were ordinarily an employed or self-employed earner in the UK.
- You also satisfy either of the following conditions:
(b) Before going abroad, you paid any of the following National Insurance:
- from April 1975 to give 3 qualifying years
- from April 1975 to give 2 qualifying years and paid 52 National Insurance contributions (of any Class) before 6 April 1975
- from April 1975 to give 1 qualifying year and paid 104 National Insurance contributions (of any Class) before 6 April 1975
- 156 National Insurance contributions (of any Class) before 6 April 1975
If you lived or worked in an EU country, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland or Turkey, time spent there may help you to meet condition 2(a) or 2(b).
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thanks for that, so that would seem to say that working in an EU country may help to meet the minimum 3 year condition, like the letter I received , however this allows also for class 2 contributions. However they seem to be interpreting it as only being open for class 3 contributions if you need use EU work record to meet 3 year requirement