Central Bank: 800,000 adults don't want a job

[cremeegg]

You have some neck....your comments are lazy and ignorant to say the least.

Really ? Is that really where you are at. I will assume it was a momentary aberration and move on.

To respond to your substantive point. In my opinion LUAS drivers are grossly overpaid, and it makes no difference whether this is due to the terms of Transdev's franchise or LUAS drivers strike power. Either way in my opinion LUAS drivers have huge strike power, you seem to disagree.


As you said in relation to another post.

Ah c'mon, do I have to go down to the micro level here?

 

[TheBigShort]

Really ? Is that really where you are at. I will assume it was a momentary aberration and move on.

I apologise, my comments were too harsh and personalized. I sometimes forget that this is just a comments forum.

I do get infuriated however at what I perceive is lazy commentary on trade unions. As a trade unionist, I accept that it is littered with flaws. But I also understand that it has achieved a great many things. Without trade unions, agitating, it is unlikely that we would have 8 hrs working days, five days a week, minimum wage, annual leave, public holidays, overtime rates, unfair dismissal legislation, employment rights, equality legislation etc, etc.
The case of LUAS is there to be studied if anyone cares to do so. Labeling the drivers as 'grossly overpaid' and laying the blame at the door at trade unions is folly.
The employer offered the pay rates as part of its submission to win the tender. It offered pay scale reviews every five years as part of its submission to win the tender.
In 2006 prior to the economic crisis, and after the said pay review, pay increases were agreed until the next pay review.
Bring on the economic crisis and all changed. Such was the uncertainty, management inferred pay cuts and redundancies if unions pushed for the implementation of the agreed pay rises.
SIPTU, representing the workers, brokered a deal with management. A deferral of the agreed pay rises in return for a commitment not to cut pay or pursue redundancies. Each side held a condition - the right to review. If economic conditions adversely impacted on profits and productivity, management would seek pay cuts and redundancies.
If profits and productivity were not adversely affected, unions would seek the implementation of agreed pay rises.
The result, the LUAS works continued to increase passenger numbers, increase revenue, increase expansion plans.
The (in)famous 50% pay increase was related to two five-year pay reviews. 5% a year, a negotiating position with a company that was growing and expanding during the worst economic downturn ever.
They settled at 1.8% a year for 10yrs.

To argue that the drivers are overpaid, the unions are at fault, and to admit not knowing the details of the dispute nor needing to know!...I'll let you describe what type of commentary that is.

 

[cremeegg]

Without trade unions, agitating, it is unlikely that we would have 8 hrs working days, five days a week, minimum wage, annual leave, public holidays, overtime rates, unfair dismissal legislation, employment rights, equality legislation etc, etc.

I agree, but I would add that it is all past tense.

Labelling the drivers as 'grossly overpaid'

The get roughly one and a third times the average wage, for a very basic job, I will dig out the video if you like.

and laying the blame at the door at trade unions is folly.

No blame to the unions. the drivers representatives have done an excellent job for their members.

The employer offered the pay rates as part of its submission to win the tender. It offered pay scale reviews every five years as part of its submission to win the tender.
In 2006 prior to the economic crisis, and after the said pay review, pay increases were agreed until the next pay review.
Bring on the economic crisis and all changed. Such was the uncertainty, management inferred pay cuts and redundancies if unions pushed for the implementation of the agreed pay rises.
SIPTU, representing the workers, brokered a deal with management. A deferral of the agreed pay rises in return for a commitment not to cut pay or pursue redundancies. Each side held a condition - the right to review. If economic conditions adversely impacted on profits and productivity, management would seek pay cuts and redundancies.
If profits and productivity were not adversely affected, unions would seek the implementation of agreed pay rises.
The result, the LUAS works continued to increase passenger numbers, increase revenue, increase expansion plans.
The (in)famous 50% pay increase was related to two five-year pay reviews. 5% a year, a negotiating position with a company that was growing and expanding during the worst economic downturn ever.
They settled at 1.8% a year for 10yrs.

I am obviously not as familiar with the details as you are, so I accept that this is a fair representation of the events, but what point does that all make.

It certainly says nothing to my contention that the lack of wage pressure in the economy is in part due to the inactivity of the TUs, especially in the casual work sector.

 

[TheBigShort]

I agree, but I would add that it is all past tense.

??? The legislation that exists in these areas continues to exist today. There are people out there who would row back on these protections if they could. The stronger the trade union movement the less likely for it to happen. Weaker trade union movement, more likely to happen.

The get roughly one and a third times the average wage, for a very basic job, I will dig out the video if you like.

I know the job is not technical. But it is a critical part of the transport network in Dublin which brings tens of thousands of other workers to their place of employment.
For sure, someone on minimum wage could do the job. But someone on minimum wage may not turn up much Monday morning, or do the night shift, or weekends, or public holidays.
To illustrate the point, we looked for a childminder for the school term offering€9.50ph. We scheduled an interview with a young woman but she didn't turn up. We called her and she said 'something had come up'. We bumped into her later that day on the beach! That's unreliable.
If you pay minimum wage or close to it, expect unreliability and disruption. Is that how the Capital city transport network should operate?
You need people who are reliable and punctual, with working experience and who can manage themselves. These type of people have their own responsibilities, mortgages, rent, bills, childcare etc.
You are not going to get these workers for low minimum wage, in the capital city, without getting a disruptive service to go with it.

No blame to the unions. the drivers representatives have done an excellent job for their members.

The Luas dispute illustrated all that is worst in Trade Unions.

I must have misconstrued this comment so.

It certainly says nothing to my contention that the lack of wage pressure in the economy is in part due to the inactivity of the TUs, especially in the casual work sector.

To which I agreed, partially. Certainly more can and should be done. But I would consider that anti-trade union forces to be a bigger factor.

 

[Purple]

I will, after you have answered mine. This relates to the strike at the Green Isle plant in Kildare, where the workers make pizzas.

http://m.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/deal-sees-workers-end-hunger-strike-26637593.html

Do pizza worker's not go on strike?

You are really reaching there!
If someone works in a bus manufacturing plant does that make them a bus driver?

Some people clearly think that way. Others would disagree. I would be one of them.

Fair enough. The Trade Union movement has achieved many good things over the years. I am proud of the significant part my family played in the foundation of the Trade Union movement in Ireland. In my opinion they have betrayed the people they were set up to support and are now a protectionist group protecting middle class earners from the poor. It was meant to be an international movement but it agitates to keep the poor stuck in their cycle of poverty by protecting it's members from competition. They are worse than the corporations who exploit the poor.

But the one point that is missing, in my opinion, is if the robot technology age is upon us, then there will be mass displacement of employment.

Therefore mobility of labour is critical to our future and those who will not change will be unemployable. Nothing restricts labour mobility like a Trade Union.

But if everything is free, who decides who gets to live in a mansion with a flash car and who does not? Or can we all expect to live rich style lifestyles? Why not, if robots do everything for us?

Have you ever read an Iain M Banks book?

If you pay minimum wage or close to it, expect unreliability and disruption. Is that how the Capital city transport network should operate?

Are you suggesting that people in the minimum wage are lazy and unreliable?!

 

[cremeegg]

In my opinion they (Trade Unions) have betrayed the people they were set up to support and are now a protectionist group protecting middle class earners from the poor.

Nail on the head.

It was meant to be an international movement but it agitates to keep the poor stuck in their cycle of poverty by protecting it's members from competition.

Exactly, and campaigns against imports from less developed countries thus denying them the opportunity to develop.

mobility of labour is critical to our future and those who will not change will be unemployable. Nothing restricts labour mobility like a Trade Union.

Trade Unions may be essential to prevent exploitation, but in the medium term Trade Unions with too much power impoverish everybody.

 

[Leo]

You make some reasonable points. But the one point that is missing, in my opinion, is if the robot technology age is upon us, then there will be mass displacement of employment. If there is mass unemployment, who is going to buy the goods and services that the robots make?

Ah, the Luddite Fallacy. As with previous leaps in automation, there won't be mass unemployment, just an evolution of what work is and the nature of jobs available.

The biggest challenge is likely to be a shrinking middle class with associated fewer opportunities for upward social migration, and the importance of education in obtaining well paid employment.

 

[Firefly]

The biggest challenge is likely to be a shrinking middle class with associated fewer opportunities for upward social migration, and the importance of education in obtaining well paid employment.

I think the quality and relevance of education is going to be key.

 

[Purple]

Ah, the Luddite Fallacy. As with previous leaps in automation, there won't be mass unemployment, just an evolution of what work is and the nature of jobs available.

The biggest challenge is likely to be a shrinking middle class with associated fewer opportunities for upward social migration, and the importance of education in obtaining well paid employment.

The longer inevitable change is resisted the harder and more painful and damaging it is to finally make that change.

 

[TheBigShort]

You are really reaching there!
If someone works in a bus manufacturing plant does that make them a bus driver?

No, but if someone works in a pizza making factory, making pizzas, to my mind that makes them a pizza maker.

Fair enough. The Trade Union movement has achieved many good things over the years.

Yes, like helping to resolve the dispute at the pizza making factory for the pizza makers who were on strike.

In my opinion they have betrayed the people they were set up to support and are now a protectionist group protecting middle class earners from the poor

That is a broadstroke generalised view. I agree the unions have many flaws, but they can only stand up for those who are prepared to unite together. The free-loaders who benefit from any improvement in their working conditions while their colleagues pay their subscriptions week in, week out, year in, year out, are the biggest betrayers of all.

It was meant to be an international movement but it agitates to keep the poor stuck in their cycle of poverty by protecting it's members from competition.

It still is an international movement. It doesn't agitate to keep poor stuck in cycle of poverty. How does protect its members from competition? This came in my inbox today

Labourstart.org.

The longer inevitable change is resisted the harder and more painful and damaging it is to finally make that change.

Depends if the change is for the better or not. Closing mining plants in the UK was ultimately for the better.
Trying getting new recruits to the LUAS starting off on lower pay rates than their colleagues is not for the better.[/QUOTE]

 

[TheBigShort]

Ah, the Luddite Fallacy. As with previous leaps in automation, there won't be mass unemployment, just an evolution of what work is and the nature of jobs available.

The biggest challenge is likely to be a shrinking middle class with associated fewer opportunities for upward social migration, and the importance of education in obtaining well paid employment.

I agree, long-term, that is true. In the short-term there will be disruption. If that disruption is not managed effectively, then mass unemployment (for a period) could be a reality.

 

[TheBigShort]

You are really reaching there!
If someone works in a bus manufacturing plant does that make them a bus driver?


Are you suggesting that people in the minimum wage are lazy and unreliable?!

Not at all. The disruption, if you pay only minimum wage, comes from the fact that it is easier for the employee to change from one employment to another. Thus having an increasing staff turnover rate may lead to a disruption of services, this makes the service unreliable.
An employer I know, who runs a fast food restaurant says the only people who will work late nights for minimum wage are young people and students. The problem is, they are forever wanting to swap shifts, turning in late, not turning up at all, there is always a party to go to etc...etc... These workers are studying for better qualifications, they will move on when it suits and the turnover rate is high.
This is disruptive, this is unreliable.
Do you think a critical component of the capital city's transport network should operate like so? I don't. What keeps the LUAS operating efficiently is that value is placed on the workers through their wages. It's what keeps them coming in on time, consistently.

 

[TheBigShort]

Nail on the head.



Exactly, and campaigns against imports from less developed countries thus denying them the opportunity to develop.



Trade Unions may be essential to prevent exploitation, but in the medium term Trade Unions with too much power impoverish everybody.

I think you should read that again? Essential to prevent exploitation, but simultaneously impoverishing everybody!
Can you highlight a campaign against imports from less developed countries please?

 

[Leo]

I agree, long-term, that is true. In the short-term there will be disruption. If that disruption is not managed effectively, then mass unemployment (for a period) could be a reality.

Factors like regulatory hurdles and significant costs for early adopters will ensure the disruption won't happen overnight just like it took many years for tractors to become widespread in farming. There's already a lot of material published on the job types that are likely to hit hardest and those that are deemed safest, and no doubt there will be many new jobs that most of us wouldn't even consider today. How many of us would have predicted that vloggers could be earning in the tens of millions, or that the eSports industry revenues would be hitting $750M this year (and top gamers are earning into the millions).

 

[Purple]

Can you highlight a campaign against imports from less developed countries please?

Their talk of "a race to the bottom" and lamenting outsourcing to lower cost countries.
It wasn't so long ago that we were the lower cost country which the jobs were being outsourced to.

 

[Purple]

Essential to prevent exploitation, but simultaneously impoverishing everybody!

How does fair trade impoverish everyone? Since we started trading openly with the Far East hundreds of millions of people have been lifted out of poverty with little impact on us.
Do you think people who don't look at the same as us shouldn't have the same opportunities as us?
I don't want to be well off at the expense of trapping someone else in a cycle of poverty.

 

[Purple]

That is a broadstroke generalised view. I agree the unions have many flaws, but they can only stand up for those who are prepared to unite together. The free-loaders who benefit from any improvement in their working conditions while their colleagues pay their subscriptions week in, week out, year in, year out, are the biggest betrayers of all.

I presume you don't include small farmers in sub-Saharan Africa in the freeloader group.

It still is an international movement. It doesn't agitate to keep poor stuck in cycle of poverty.

It works against open markets and labour flexibility. In doing so it agitates to keep poor stuck in cycle of poverty.

 

[Purple]

Not at all. The disruption, if you pay only minimum wage, comes from the fact that it is easier for the employee to change from one employment to another. Thus having an increasing staff turnover rate may lead to a disruption of services, this makes the service unreliable.
An employer I know, who runs a fast food restaurant says the only people who will work late nights for minimum wage are young people and students. The problem is, they are forever wanting to swap shifts, turning in late, not turning up at all, there is always a party to go to etc...etc...

Which is it?

 

[TheBigShort]

Their talk of "a race to the bottom" and lamenting outsourcing to lower cost countries.
It wasn't so long ago that we were the lower cost country which the jobs were being outsourced to.

That doesn't make any sense. Is there any body or group that actually advocates a race to the bottom? As for "lamenting" outsourcing to lower cost countries? Does nobody else "lament" the outsourcing of jobs?
When Dell decided to move to Poland, who cheered? What did the unions do that was so regressive? Other than call for protection of redundancies for the employees. Or when Clerys closed down and workers were left hanging. What did unions do other than campaign for, and get, a settlement for each of the workers?

 

[TheBigShort]

I presume you don't include small farmers in sub-Saharan Africa in the freeloader group.

Oh great, you have gone globalist again. Did you know that pizza workers in the US and UK have gone on strike?

It works against open markets and labour flexibility. In doing so it agitates to keep poor stuck in cycle of poverty.

No it doesn't, you are making this stuff up.