Can neighbour refuse ESB/water/sewage access to my site?

[Aladdin]

Hello, I have outline planning permission on a site I want to build on, which currently has no access to water or sewage. It's too small for a septic tank so I will need to connect to public services via a private cul de sac laneway never taken in charge by the council with multiple one-off houses already in situ. My site is right at the end of this lane.

One of these neighbours along the lane is very much a Bull McCabe type so I'm concerned he'll kick up a fuss about laying pipes for services access along it, but does he have the power to prevent me doing this? The lane is a private right of way (originally an agricultural ROW) used by all existing houses situated along it, so I'm not sure if I'll need permission for each and every one of them to bring services up to my site since it's not 'owned' by anyone in particular.

In the middle of a housing crisis, could one (or maybe even more) curmudgeonly neighbour realistically have the power to nix my build?

 

[Sue Ellen]

multiple one-off houses already in situ.

I'm not sure if I'll need permission for each and every one of them to bring services up to my site

Have you established if the neighbours had to individually seek permission as you mention. Perhaps you could look at the local Council website and see what planning restrictions applied to them.

 

[Forumuser]

Are you sure that the road is not owned by someone?

I live in exactly the same situation as yourself- but every landowner who borders the road owns that part of the road as well. I do as well own the part of the road bordering my land. I own it to the middle of the road. The neighbour across the road owns the other half. You need to check the folios involved to find out.

I wonder how the other neighbours managed to get their water and sewage pipes in. I wonder if they all applied for proper planning permission. Here the council would not give any planning permission for a house on such a road. They only give planning permission for either sites with an entrance from a council serviced road- or a fully private road in the sole ownership of the applicant.

In theory the neighbour you are referring to can block your plans- and the whole thing would end up in court. You might have the right of way- but not the right to dig it all up and put in pipes, etc. A judge would decide about this.

Is there no way you can talk to your neighbour? I know the type you are talking about. Those folks like to be the boss. But they also like to see people coming as beggars and asking the boss for a favour. They feel very important if you do that- and might grant your wishes....

 

[Pmc365]

Land Registry Maps are not exclusive as to property boundaries unless adjoining landowners agree to same in writing ( which rarely happens).
The Folio is completely separate to the map ( filed plan).

 

[Aladdin]

Have you established if the neighbours had to individually seek permission as you mention. Perhaps you could look at the local Council website and see what planning restrictions applied to them.

It's been a long time (decades) since a new house was built on the lane and nothing in the planning docs that I can see about third party permission to connect services.

 

[Aladdin]

Are you sure that the road is not owned by someone?

I live in exactly the same situation as yourself- but every landowner who borders the road owns that part of the road as well. I do as well own the part of the road bordering my land. I own it to the middle of the road. The neighbour across the road owns the other half. You need to check the folios involved to find out.

I wonder how the other neighbours managed to get their water and sewage pipes in. I wonder if they all applied for proper planning permission. Here the council would not give any planning permission for a house on such a road. They only give planning permission for either sites with an entrance from a council serviced road- or a fully private road in the sole ownership of the applicant.

In theory the neighbour you are referring to can block your plans- and the whole thing would end up in court. You might have the right of way- but not the right to dig it all up and put in pipes, etc. A judge would decide about this.

Is there no way you can talk to your neighbour? I know the type you are talking about. Those folks like to be the boss. But they also like to see people coming as beggars and asking the boss for a favour. They feel very important if you do that- and might grant your wishes....

I don't want to say anything until I can find out if it's necessary to ask at all because the kind of guy he is, he would definitely hold out just because he could!

 

[Aladdin]

Land Registry Maps are not exclusive as to property boundaries unless adjoining landowners agree to same in writing ( which rarely happens).
The Folio is completely separate to the map ( filed plan).

How does this relate, does it mean I shouldn't have to ask for permission to dig up lane to lay pipes to connect to services since ownsership is not clear per se?

 

[KOW]

Hello, I have outline planning permission on a site I want to build on, which currently has no access to water or sewage. It's too small for a septic tank so I will need to connect to public services via a private cul de sac laneway never taken in charge by the council with multiple one-off houses already in situ. My site is right at the end of this lane.

One of these neighbours along the lane is very much a Bull McCabe type so I'm concerned he'll kick up a fuss about laying pipes for services access along it, but does he have the power to prevent me doing this? The lane is a private right of way (originally an agricultural ROW) used by all existing houses situated along it, so I'm not sure if I'll need permission for each and every one of them to bring services up to my site since it's not 'owned' by anyone in particular.

In the middle of a housing crisis, could one (or maybe even more) curmudgeonly neighbour realistically have the power to nix my build?

I own a similar laneway. Someone must own the laneway.. Houses along my laneway have a right of way to their property. A farmer also has a right of way to farm his land. The farmer sold off a site a couple of years ago. The couple who purchased the site subject to planning came to me and asked would I sign a right of way to the proposed site which I did. I woiuld think most people would not unless they were paid.
I am not familiar with the law but I would think that if the person who owns the lane does not want it touched then there is little you can do about it.
Just me but I genuinely do not think many people would just give you the nod without a payment. Would a developer? Would you honestly let someone dig up your laneway? Maybe I am turning into another "bull" but I would need serious compensation to allow development again.

 

[Pmc365]

Correction: Land Registry maps are not conclusive ( as opposed to exclusive) as regards boundaries.

 

[Aladdin]

I own a similar laneway. Someone must own the laneway.. Houses along my laneway have a right of way to their property. A farmer also has a right of way to farm his land. The farmer sold off a site a couple of years ago. The couple who purchased the site subject to planning came to me and asked would I sign a right of way to the proposed site which I did. I woiuld think most people would not unless they were paid.
I am not familiar with the law but I would think that if the person who owns the lane does not want it touched then there is little you can do about it.
Just me but I genuinely do not think many people would just give you the nod without a payment. Would a developer? Would you honestly let someone dig up your laneway? Maybe I am turning into another "bull" but I would need serious compensation to allow development again.

To clarify, all residents on the laneway including myself already have right of way but no one person 'owns' it. My query was whether permission is needed from everyone along the lane to bring public services far as my site since it's the one right at the end.

 

[Forumuser]

To clarify, all residents on the laneway including myself already have right of way but no one person 'owns' it. My query was whether permission is needed from everyone along the lane to bring public services far as my site since it's the one right at the end.

How do you know that nobody owns the road? Everything is owned by someone!
If the county council does not serve it, it is probably what folks call an "LIS" road. But even these roads are owned by someone- all landowners who have property adjoining the road. They own that specific part of the road adjoining their land- it is in fact part of their land- even if there are ditches or walls separating land and road. It looks like the property of a landowner ends at the wall or ditch- but it really ends in the middle of the road- where it meets the border of the landowner across the road- who owns the other half of that bit of the road.
Folks do have the right of way acquired if they used the road for a certain numbers of years- and no owner objecting. Which seems to be the case in your situation. But that acquired right of way does not allow anyone to dig the road up to install pipes or cables, etc. You surely need permission from every landowner to do that.
Any solicitor could tell you that if you present him/her with the problem!
Have a pre planning meeting with your county council- and they quickly tell you the same story. You may might open a can of worms for all other house owners along that road when it is found out that none of them had any planning permission. That would not surprise me- plenty of houses went up in my area without planning permission during the boom years.

 

[Aladdin]

How do you know that nobody owns the road? Everything is owned by someone!
If the county council does not serve it, it is probably what folks call an "LIS" road. But even these roads are owned by someone- all landowners who have property adjoining the road. They own that specific part of the road adjoining their land- it is in fact part of their land- even if there are ditches or walls separating land and road. It looks like the property of a landowner ends at the wall or ditch- but it really ends in the middle of the road- where it meets the border of the landowner across the road- who owns the other half of that bit of the road.

Yes, this is exactly it. No one person owns it, we all own parts, which is why I'm trying to figure out how difficult or otherwise it might be to get services up along it. I have outline planning on my site, a follow-on from previous full planning which I couldn't act upon at the time.

 

[Leo]

No one person owns it, we all own parts, which is why I'm trying to figure out how difficult or otherwise it might be to get services up along it.

If it's clear that you all own parts then your path forward is clear, you need to obtain permission from each and every owner for the works you require. You will likely require the creation of an easement to allow you access to maintain the services in future.

 

[Aladdin]

If it's clear that you all own parts then your path forward is clear, you need to obtain permission from each and every owner for the works you require. You will likely require the creation of an easement to allow you access to maintain the services in future.

OK that sounds complicated and probably impossible, given the one curmudgeonly neighbour (that I know of!). Would the creation of a brand new easement be necessary given the long-established legal right of way already in place? Crikey, how can anything in this country ever be built if so much needs to be decided and allowed via committee...

 

[Bluecup]

I honestly don't think you all own part. The Land Registry boundaries will likely show your parcels to the centre of the road but these boundaries are not accurate (see disclaimer on Land Registry maps) and are done this way for convenience.

A solid, but time consuming, way of finding out the owner is to go back to when the land was one parcel at the valuation office and then follow through the valuation maps as the land was divided up.

There is usually one house that did the selling off of the smaller parcels and they held onto the road. In your situation, if there is a working farm somewhere along the road, they probably held onto it.

 

[Marsupial]

In the middle of a housing crisis, could one (or maybe even more) curmudgeonly neighbour realistically have the power to nix my build?

But they're not stopping you from building on your site.

Crikey, how can anything in this country ever be built if so much needs to be decided and allowed via committee...

But not every building project involves digging up parts of other people's privately owned laneway, if that is the correct situation.

Surely the solicitor who handled the site purchase would have flagged this potential issue to you?

 

[Aladdin]

But they're not stopping you from building on your site.



But not every building project involves digging up parts of other people's privately owned laneway, if that is the correct situation.

Surely the solicitor who handled the site purchase would have flagged this potential issue to you?

I've owned the site for donkeys years and like everyone else accessed via the laneway but never had the opportunity/finances to build anything until now. Or so I thought!

 

[Forumuser]

I've owned the site for donkeys years and like everyone else accessed via the laneway but never had the opportunity/finances to build anything until now. Or so I thought!

There is one possible solution- and it would favour all parties involved:
Apply to the council to take over the road. It would be an all public road then. Talk to your local councillor about it. He could organize everything- like an assessment through a council engineer and a vote in the council chamber. It was done here- so it can be done other counties as as well.
One way of getting the council interested would be to get every house in your land connected to the sewer system and close down all the septic tanks of the other houses. Cleaner environment and all that stuff. And any councillor would be willing to take up the job because he/she would be interested in votes. Of course it will take time to get it done.
You could get all your service lines in for free if the council takes over the job because the involvement of all houses in the lane.

 

[Forumuser]

I honestly don't think you all own part. The Land Registry boundaries will likely show your parcels to the centre of the road but these boundaries are not accurate (see disclaimer on Land Registry maps) and are done this way for convenience.

A solid, but time consuming, way of finding out the owner is to go back to when the land was one parcel at the valuation office and then follow through the valuation maps as the land was divided up.

There is usually one house that did the selling off of the smaller parcels and they held onto the road. In your situation, if there is a working farm somewhere along the road, they probably held onto it.

As far as I know sites cannot be sold unless there is a proper public access to it. So any site owner who has bought in the past must have a folio, etc, showing that right in writing and on an enclosed map.
The existing houses must have such thing- otherwise the county council would never have given planning permission. So the info is there to find out.
I agree- there is a possibility that the original selling landowner or farmer still owns the road. In that case he only sold the sites without the road bits.
The farmer may might have an interest in getting the road taken over by the council. That way he does not have to service it- the CC does the job for him. On the other hand he might not like it- because he needs to treat the road in a respectable way- and some farmers simply don't do that.
It is different in my case- the place I live in is the original farm house and has full ownership of the part of the road I border with my land and garden. I swapped a bit of land with one of the adjoining landowners some years ago- and the bits about the road were enclosed in the maps, marked with a different colour and also mentioned in the papers with the exact size of the road bits in square meters. We had two calculations- one for the land itself- and one for the road bits. The engineer who came out went nuts because it was such a nightmare job to find out the exact size of everything. All maps from the past were analogue- and he had to use digital techniques to transfer the bits onto analogue paper maps for the transfer treaties.

 

[KOW]

When there was full planning on your site where on application did it state how you were to connect to services.? This would have to have been submitted with planning application.
Also why are you not seeking to connect to services at connection junction to current last house on laneway. In other words the house nearest your site.. Why would you need to feed from the start of the laneway?