Re: Buying in Bulgaria: travelling to Bulgaria next w/e for an inspection trip in Ban
Can you elaborate Camry?
Can you elaborate Camry?
Buying in Bulgaria: travelling to Bulgaria next w/e for an inspection trip in Bansko.
- Thread starter MoiMoi
- Start date
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Hope i've got this in time for Moi Moi, but please see this article
[broken link removed]
Not one apartment has been sold in Bansko in the last 4 months, hotels are due to be demolished, the nightmare is really starting to come true here, it actually sounds worse than I could've imagined...
Any insights into what they are now telling people on inspection trips??
[broken link removed]
Not one apartment has been sold in Bansko in the last 4 months, hotels are due to be demolished, the nightmare is really starting to come true here, it actually sounds worse than I could've imagined...
Any insights into what they are now telling people on inspection trips??
Z
z101
Guest
I think MoiMoi said they put down a deposit..
Amazing, considering every post on here said 'DONT DO IT!'
2009 means nothing as the Bulgarian Lev is already locked into the Euro, exchange wise.
Must be a wind up..
Amazing, considering every post on here said 'DONT DO IT!'
2009 means nothing as the Bulgarian Lev is already locked into the Euro, exchange wise.
Must be a wind up..
P
plus one75
Guest
Hello all,
I have been to Bulgaria on several occasions, not as an investor but with work. I was in Bansko in 2002 and it was a tiny resort that only had Balkan Tours operating there. There were relatively few Irish people or Brits about at that time and the cable car wasn't even in operation and you had to bus it up the mountain. It was a fantastic place back then and the skiing was the most amazing ever (and we were there in March).. the people were friendly, the hotel was cheap and lovely and the 5 days I had in Bansko were most memorable. So much so that I considered investing there for the long term.
However, due to purchasing a house in Ireland the funds for a little ski chalet in Bulgaria never seemed to be available. I went back in 2006 and was so glad I didn't buy there. If you were to believe all the hype and not make a site visit in 2006 you would have seen it as a no-brainer but the place was and is, unfortunatly, a victim of it's own success.. There were building works all over the place, but alas, an awful lot of them were unfinished (as seems to be the case still if MoiMoi was recently there!), however the road network was appalling and the much touted new 'airport' was, according to my Bulgarian colleagues - no more than the upgrading of an airstrip (I have no proof on this, just hearsay!). A look around the town proved that there was an awful lot of the accommodation still available for sale and as supply was out classing demand you wouldn't need an economics degree to figure out how that would affect prices. But the most concerning of all was that there was little or no snow. The ski conditions were terrible and were only made worse by over crowding and poor snow making facilities. We left Bansko fairly lively and went to Borovets, which I am afraid was no better!! I heard that the 2007 season wasn't that much better.
But if MoiMoi was there recently perhaps there has been an improvement in the area (although previous posts here and other internet forums may suggest otherwise). I can only give my experience in the place and have learned a valuable lesson. When buying abroad ALWAYS check out the place first and DONT believe the sales hype!!
I have been to Bulgaria on several occasions, not as an investor but with work. I was in Bansko in 2002 and it was a tiny resort that only had Balkan Tours operating there. There were relatively few Irish people or Brits about at that time and the cable car wasn't even in operation and you had to bus it up the mountain. It was a fantastic place back then and the skiing was the most amazing ever (and we were there in March).. the people were friendly, the hotel was cheap and lovely and the 5 days I had in Bansko were most memorable. So much so that I considered investing there for the long term.
However, due to purchasing a house in Ireland the funds for a little ski chalet in Bulgaria never seemed to be available. I went back in 2006 and was so glad I didn't buy there. If you were to believe all the hype and not make a site visit in 2006 you would have seen it as a no-brainer but the place was and is, unfortunatly, a victim of it's own success.. There were building works all over the place, but alas, an awful lot of them were unfinished (as seems to be the case still if MoiMoi was recently there!), however the road network was appalling and the much touted new 'airport' was, according to my Bulgarian colleagues - no more than the upgrading of an airstrip (I have no proof on this, just hearsay!). A look around the town proved that there was an awful lot of the accommodation still available for sale and as supply was out classing demand you wouldn't need an economics degree to figure out how that would affect prices. But the most concerning of all was that there was little or no snow. The ski conditions were terrible and were only made worse by over crowding and poor snow making facilities. We left Bansko fairly lively and went to Borovets, which I am afraid was no better!! I heard that the 2007 season wasn't that much better.
But if MoiMoi was there recently perhaps there has been an improvement in the area (although previous posts here and other internet forums may suggest otherwise). I can only give my experience in the place and have learned a valuable lesson. When buying abroad ALWAYS check out the place first and DONT believe the sales hype!!
MichaelDes
Registered User
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- 431
I would not touch the market with a barge pole because of widespread corruption. But if you want to make an investment, then do so with a big player, such as Orchid Developments (Aim:OCH). It develops property and operates hotels in Varna and Sofia. Again, it is a safer way to play without getting burn't totally. Leave OPI's like this to larger more experienced hacks rather than having a myriad of problems in an overseas area. There are many other investments choices just Google and see - but stay away from companies giving an investment return via guaranteed rental it's a sure sign of a dog. P.S. I have nothing to do with the above nor have I any investments with them either.
P
piglet
Guest
You would want to be out of your head to invest in Bulgaria under any circumstances. I am aware of substantial misappropriation of funds, lack of access to investor info, blocking, and even intimidation - and this is for mezzanine investors! The poor sod who buys the units is in for a ride where the developer total cost is covered by 40% deposits.
Eventually the over-build and over-hype would collapse the deck of cards and this is happening. Avoid at all costs for God sake.
Eventually the over-build and over-hype would collapse the deck of cards and this is happening. Avoid at all costs for God sake.
L
lyonsie99
Guest
Has any one got an opinion on the following article from FT.com????Paints a little more positive picture on Bulgaria.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e9a35700-8ee5-11dc-87ee-0000779fd2ac.html
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e9a35700-8ee5-11dc-87ee-0000779fd2ac.html
Z
z109
Guest
Re: Buying in Bulgaria: travelling to Bulgaria next w/e for an inspection trip in Ban
It does contract rather sharply with this article on Bloomberg:
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=av.G2Tzk8bYk&refer=home
The article comments mainly on the likelihood of a hard landing in Latvia and the possibility of contagion across eastern europe and the balkans, but includes:
" Lithuania, Estonia and Bulgaria are the most vulnerable [to contagion] because they use a currency board, which prevents central banks from using interest rates to control inflation and growth, said Lubomir Christoff, head of Bulgaria's Central Depository, on Oct. 12."
It does contract rather sharply with this article on Bloomberg:
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=av.G2Tzk8bYk&refer=home
The article comments mainly on the likelihood of a hard landing in Latvia and the possibility of contagion across eastern europe and the balkans, but includes:
" Lithuania, Estonia and Bulgaria are the most vulnerable [to contagion] because they use a currency board, which prevents central banks from using interest rates to control inflation and growth, said Lubomir Christoff, head of Bulgaria's Central Depository, on Oct. 12."
Re: Buying in Bulgaria: travelling to Bulgaria next w/e for an inspection trip in Ban
The FT article is just the Colliers PR team ensuring they get coverage for Colliers Bulgarian office and are talking the market up because they have clients there and the market is struggling. Anyway the UK market is couple of years behind Ireland in terms of investor sentinement, which is why the Bulgarians are now focusing more on the UK than Ireland. I worked in Property PR in London for five years and getting articles like this, even in the FT, isn't rocket science.
The FT article is just the Colliers PR team ensuring they get coverage for Colliers Bulgarian office and are talking the market up because they have clients there and the market is struggling. Anyway the UK market is couple of years behind Ireland in terms of investor sentinement, which is why the Bulgarians are now focusing more on the UK than Ireland. I worked in Property PR in London for five years and getting articles like this, even in the FT, isn't rocket science.
J
johni
Guest
poland is the way to go . lost of money flowing back into the country, just like ireland years back and we know what happened here
Re: Buying in Bulgaria: travelling to Bulgaria next w/e for an inspection trip in Ban
I bought some land in Varna, I think it was 2002, with a view to building a few villas on it. Very tricky with the mafia out there and it put me off doing anything there and I ended up just selling the land - , they are the ones driving the flash cars, not the average bulgarian.
Now I think as camry alluded to simple supply and demand is the issue, and thats why i believe its way too late to invest anywhere but bang in the best areas of Sofia.- which hopefully youve done moi moi. If you arent renting your place chances are you wont resell it because if theres no yield no investor will ever buy it and it wont rise in price.
i suggest when it is built to maximise your return, dont use the local management company rent it for you - attempt to find a long term tenant yourself through local papers or websites. Otherwise you are putting yourself in the hands of locals to make your investment a good one, and again from my experience the bulgarians dont have the same work ethic as the poles for example. -One reason Warsaw is a good place to invest, as the Poles work hard abroad, go home and buy a place for themselves, not really the same in bulgaria
Note my opinions may be bias due vested interest in other areas
I bought some land in Varna, I think it was 2002, with a view to building a few villas on it. Very tricky with the mafia out there and it put me off doing anything there and I ended up just selling the land - , they are the ones driving the flash cars, not the average bulgarian.
Now I think as camry alluded to simple supply and demand is the issue, and thats why i believe its way too late to invest anywhere but bang in the best areas of Sofia.- which hopefully youve done moi moi. If you arent renting your place chances are you wont resell it because if theres no yield no investor will ever buy it and it wont rise in price.
i suggest when it is built to maximise your return, dont use the local management company rent it for you - attempt to find a long term tenant yourself through local papers or websites. Otherwise you are putting yourself in the hands of locals to make your investment a good one, and again from my experience the bulgarians dont have the same work ethic as the poles for example. -One reason Warsaw is a good place to invest, as the Poles work hard abroad, go home and buy a place for themselves, not really the same in bulgaria
Note my opinions may be bias due vested interest in other areas
J
Joe Blogs
Guest
IT'S NOT ALL DOOM AND GLOOM........
The ski season in bansko is opening in two weeks i.e the 1st of december. There is more snow there now than the whole of last season. Every 50 years there is one bad ski season so every amature investor is panking. Most of The Irish people who have bought in Bansko have never been to a ski resort in their lives and after one bad season everyone is trying to sell...... WHY
Bulgaria is a long term investment, too many have bought with the intention of selling in the short-term and that is why you have a situation now where no one wants to buy because everyone thinks it's a bad investment. Tell me where in the world you can buy a ski apartment for approx 1,000 euros a sq meter next to the ski lift??? Forget about the golf courses it;s a ski resort and anyone who thinks a golf course with 10,000 roombeds is a good investment, then they should have there head examined.
I also resent the last comment about bulgarians
and again from my experience the bulgarians dont have the same work ethic as the poles
We the Irish do not want the bulgarians in Ireland so how are they going to develop a good work ethic when they cant even leave bulgaria.One of only three countries that the bulgarians can go to is Poland, and why is that, because one out of every 10 people in ireland is polish. I have lived in Bulgaria for two years and you cannot compare them with another culture that is very different from there own. They are a very proud race and they have reason to be with beautiful mountains ranges and the black sea coast.
The ski season in bansko is opening in two weeks i.e the 1st of december. There is more snow there now than the whole of last season. Every 50 years there is one bad ski season so every amature investor is panking. Most of The Irish people who have bought in Bansko have never been to a ski resort in their lives and after one bad season everyone is trying to sell...... WHY
Bulgaria is a long term investment, too many have bought with the intention of selling in the short-term and that is why you have a situation now where no one wants to buy because everyone thinks it's a bad investment. Tell me where in the world you can buy a ski apartment for approx 1,000 euros a sq meter next to the ski lift??? Forget about the golf courses it;s a ski resort and anyone who thinks a golf course with 10,000 roombeds is a good investment, then they should have there head examined.
I also resent the last comment about bulgarians
and again from my experience the bulgarians dont have the same work ethic as the poles
We the Irish do not want the bulgarians in Ireland so how are they going to develop a good work ethic when they cant even leave bulgaria.One of only three countries that the bulgarians can go to is Poland, and why is that, because one out of every 10 people in ireland is polish. I have lived in Bulgaria for two years and you cannot compare them with another culture that is very different from there own. They are a very proud race and they have reason to be with beautiful mountains ranges and the black sea coast.
ringledman
Registered User
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- 620
I'm sorry but its a bad place to invest. You never make money out of resort type investments. developers certainly do but investors don't.
Where is the resale market, local market and exit strategy? None existent.
Buy there if you like the place as a holiday home and don't mind it falling in value or if you don't mind not ever being able to sell it.
Re: Buying in Bulgaria: travelling to Bulgaria next w/e for an inspection trip in Ban
I can see how many statement would offend some, - but the fact that they can only go to certain places is relative really, perhaps its the reason why the poles have more of a work ethic as they are allowed to leave but really its neither here nor there from an irish investors perspective.
I spent a few months there and put deals on the table for many companies, agents, law firms etc, and I will stand by my opinion of them regarding their work ethic be they a proud race or not. as it happens i like the bulgarians I, just wouldnt do business with them
I can see how many statement would offend some, - but the fact that they can only go to certain places is relative really, perhaps its the reason why the poles have more of a work ethic as they are allowed to leave but really its neither here nor there from an irish investors perspective.
I spent a few months there and put deals on the table for many companies, agents, law firms etc, and I will stand by my opinion of them regarding their work ethic be they a proud race or not. as it happens i like the bulgarians I, just wouldnt do business with them
I have had a very positive experience investing in Sofia and have found the Bulgarians a pleasure to deal with.
There is of course a very prominent mafia element which is high profile in the media both inside and outside Bulgaria. Having said that I see it as not a whole lot different to outsiders looking at Ireland during the "troubles", current criminal/drug empires or the embarassing exposure some of our solicitors are getting. We are not exactly a shining beacon either !!!!!
I have had a very good return to date on the properties I bought in Sofia and like any market its location, location , location. I would encourage anyone thinking of investing there to a) stay away from ski/beach developments b) put time in on the ground to understand the market c) get a good lawyer. d) sharpen your haggling skills.
The Sofia rental market is improving though remains tricky.
My only regret is not buying more properties when I first invested and holding on a little longer to those that I have disposed of. I am reasonably bullish on capital appreciation prospects in Sofia over the next 2 to 3 years.
There is of course a very prominent mafia element which is high profile in the media both inside and outside Bulgaria. Having said that I see it as not a whole lot different to outsiders looking at Ireland during the "troubles", current criminal/drug empires or the embarassing exposure some of our solicitors are getting. We are not exactly a shining beacon either !!!!!
I have had a very good return to date on the properties I bought in Sofia and like any market its location, location , location. I would encourage anyone thinking of investing there to a) stay away from ski/beach developments b) put time in on the ground to understand the market c) get a good lawyer. d) sharpen your haggling skills.
The Sofia rental market is improving though remains tricky.
My only regret is not buying more properties when I first invested and holding on a little longer to those that I have disposed of. I am reasonably bullish on capital appreciation prospects in Sofia over the next 2 to 3 years.
Z
z101
Guest
I Ski, and I tried bansko, its average even when conditions are good. I would not buy there due simply to the fact it is not high enough! In twenty years most of this area wont get any or very snow. This is apparent in ski resorts all over Europe due to global warming. Its a donkey as property is a long term investment it defeats the purpose.
As for Bulgaria as a whole - There are less corrupt and safer investments in more established markets. In my opinion Poland is not much better. Its as corrupt as Bulgaria and Romania with just as big a black market economy. It will be a generation before these places get their act together.
As for Bulgaria as a whole - There are less corrupt and safer investments in more established markets. In my opinion Poland is not much better. Its as corrupt as Bulgaria and Romania with just as big a black market economy. It will be a generation before these places get their act together.
Why would corruption worry you when investing in a country? In spite of all that has come to light through the tribunals etc. I'll bet you still bought a house in the good old Republic of Ireland. But I'll agree, corruption is so much dirtier and disagreeable when one doesn't understand the language and probably has never visited the country upon which one passes judgement.
I'm doing just fine in Romania, thanks. I'm careful about what I buy, I don't follow the herd and i've got a great lawyer to keep me out of trouble. What do I care that the mayors, grannies aunt was granted a contract to widen the bridge over the river even though the local planners know she only has 2 oxen and can't even spell JCB? My city is flying, like the rest of the country.
I suspect that many other similar places in Bulgaria, Poland etc are doing great too. The fact that so many Irish got screwed over in Bulgaria and Budapest (in many cases by their own I might add!) doesn't detract from how well the rest of us (expat paddies) are getting on in these countries because we took the time to really understand what we were getting into and carefully and slowly bought up all that was good around us.
I'm doing just fine in Romania, thanks. I'm careful about what I buy, I don't follow the herd and i've got a great lawyer to keep me out of trouble. What do I care that the mayors, grannies aunt was granted a contract to widen the bridge over the river even though the local planners know she only has 2 oxen and can't even spell JCB? My city is flying, like the rest of the country.
I suspect that many other similar places in Bulgaria, Poland etc are doing great too. The fact that so many Irish got screwed over in Bulgaria and Budapest (in many cases by their own I might add!) doesn't detract from how well the rest of us (expat paddies) are getting on in these countries because we took the time to really understand what we were getting into and carefully and slowly bought up all that was good around us.
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