Buying a house but who is supposed to do the planning search?

[Brendan Burgess]

Pity you didn't apply that investigative instinct to Bank of Ireland shares in 2009

Feel free to take the thread off topic as I assume that the OP's question has been answered. He has a good solicitor rather than a charlatan as you suggested. He should stay with him rather than switch to someone else mid-process.

I presume you are referring to this interview in 2008?

Key Post - What Brendan Burgess has actually said about property, prices and borrowing

Many people are claiming that I am a “Vested Interest” who cheered on the property bubble. Most of the quotes are selective and out of context. They ignore the frequent comments I have made about house prices falling. This very long thread is an effort to set the record straight. In...

www.askaboutmoney.com

Brendan

 

[SquirrelChaser]

It's been a long time since I did conveyancing, but it used to be the case that searches were done pre-contract by whichever law searcher the solicitor was using.

There's two basic reasons for doing these searches:
1- To make sure there's no enforcement proceedings in train affecting the property
2- To make sure nobody is applying for or has received planning for a factory/night club/incinerator/20 story apartment building or whatever next door that would affect your decision to buy the property in the first place.

It's NOT to make sure the the conditions of planning permission have been complied with. This is achieved by a combination of the planning permission itself, architect & engineer opinions on compliance/exemption, certificates from various contractors & subcontractors, letters from the local authority etc. These should all be available pre-contract except in the case of new builds where it should be clear pre-contract what documentation re planning compliance will be handed over on closing. Planning searches will do nothing to confirm the presence or absence of any of these pieces of evidence.

If the vendor's solicitor has any sense they'll have a special condition in the contract to the effect that no questions can be asked, and none will be answered, in relation to the planning status of the property or any part thereof. This is why it's important to have all the planning issues cleared up before signing on the dotted line- if you sign and then find an issue then you have a serious problem.

To check enforcement proceedings you're still best off going through a solicitor/law searchers for this, for the simple reason that they have the experience to do it properly and the insurance to cover any errors. You don't. The solicitor should send you on a copy of the searches.

To make sure you're not going to have an open cesspit nearby (or at least not an open cesspit for which planning permission has been granted), you're probably best off checking the planning maps online. If you're buying 1 O'Connell Street, the law searcher can't be faulted for not identifying a relevant application for or grant of permission for number 5 O'Connell Street. If you're looking at a map of the same area, you can check out every application for the area, including places you'd be driving or walking through every day, to make sure you have no surprises.

 

[Ruffian]

This is achieved by a combination of the planning permission itself, architect & engineer opinions on compliance/exemption, certificates from various contractors & subcontractors, letters from the local authority etc. These should all be available pre-contract...

How does being "available pre-contract" come about normally? Is it the role of the purchaser's solicitor or engineer to source these? I assume this also includes maps so that the engineer can check boundaries?
Surveys are sometimes pre-contract, sometimes post.

 

[Leo]

How does being "available pre-contract" come about normally? Is it the role of the purchaser's solicitor or engineer to source these?

Most of these are available as a matter of public record, and would ideally be viewed before any money is spent on surveys. A purchaser's solicitor can insist on certification of compliance be furnished by the vendor (via their solicitor) if that is not on record or there are concerns about any works carried out.

If you are arranging a survey and have any concerns over boundaries, ensure you discuss that in advance as this isn't something all surveyors will take on and can entail an additional charge.

 

[SquirrelChaser]

Copies of all planning documentation should be scheduled to the draft contract, or at least that's how it used to be done. They should be with the title documents before the solicitor gets them from the bank unless (as often happens) the extension/alteration was done since the previous sale/mortgage in which case an architects opinion or whatever may need to be obtained before finalising the draft contract.

Maps are normally part of the folio, but- unless you're buying a part of an existing property- what matters is where things are on the ground not on a map. Land Registry/PRAI folios are conclusive as to title rather than the boundaries. Nobody is going to get to a garden wall a metre to the left or right simply because that's where the folio map says it is.

Caveat emptor applies with all aspects of surveys as much as with planning status. Unless the vendor's solicitor does a very poor job drafting the contract you're fully on the hook once you sign, and it doesn't matter a jot if you find out afterwards that the house is in the process of collapsing or there's a meat processing factory about to be built on the green in front of your new home. If you don't complete the purchase then at best your 10% deposit goes bye bye.

 

[Ruffian]

Most of these are available as a matter of public record,

Yes but they are not normally sourced by the prospective purchasers themselves. At our last purchase the Engineer sourced the records. I think it is usually the solicitor?

ideally be viewed before any money is spent on surveys.

There are times it may be preferable to arrange a survey before receiving correspondence/ contracts from the vendors solicitor.

A purchaser's solicitor can insist on certification of compliance be furnished by the vendor (via their solicitor) if that is not on record or there are concerns about any works carried out.

Of course the vendor should have this cert available pre sale but it often doesn't happen until requested. It may sometimes be the survey that highlights the need for certification.

 

[Leo]

Yes but they are not normally sourced by the prospective purchasers themselves. At our last purchase the Engineer sourced the records. I think it is usually the solicitor?

Your solicitor will look for certain documents, but they will play no role in verifying boundaries. This should be carried out by the purchaser and their chosen surveyor. Surveyors will often download the documents required.

There are times it may be preferable to arrange a survey before receiving correspondence/ contracts from the vendors solicitor.

What scenarios would you consider here? I would have thought surveys are usually best left until you get confirmation the vendor is in a position to close. You risk spending hundreds surveying a property you'll never be able to close on.

 

[Ruffian]

What scenarios would you consider here? I would have thought surveys are usually best left until you get confirmation the vendor is in a position to close.

Scenarios vary but it is a fact that sometimes it goes this way. And the Engineer needs the info in the planning file. The point is that almost always either they or the solicitor source it, not the purchaser.

 

[Leo]

Scenarios vary

They do, but I presume you had some in mind that would mean spending money at such an early stage made sense. I was hoping you'd share.

And the Engineer needs the info in the planning file. The point is that almost always either they or the solicitor source it, not the purchaser.

Not every pre-purchase survey will include planning searches and compliance. Look at the sample reports online, you'll see examples of where a surveyor notes an extension and advises the potential purchaser to do the required research. Some of the bigger players like HomeSure, GetHouseSurvey are very clear in that they do not offer planning verification. They say they will just highlight where development may have taken place and will advise the potential purchaser to highlight same to their solicitor. Others make no reference to offering this service and do not mention planning at all when outlining their survey coverage. There are a few, HomeCheck for example, who do offer planning verification, but only as an optional extra adding a minimum of €246 to the standard survey cost.

 

[Ruffian]

Look at the sample reports online, you'll see examples of where a surveyor notes an extension and advises the potential purchaser to do the required research

They say they will just highlight where development may have taken place and will advise the potential purchaser to highlight same to their solicitor.

Which is fine. The Solicitor is alerted and can seek verification of compliance.

I was hoping you'd share.

Sure. Because you would like to divert into am irrelevancy, I suppose. The point is that in some cases a prospective purchaser arranges a survey pre-contracts.

 

[Leo]

Which is fine. The Solicitor is alerted and can seek verification of compliance.

That's standard practice. You don't need to pay for it twice.

Sure. Because you would like to divert into am irrelevancy, I suppose.

No, I'm trying to delve into something you raised, so I presume you felt it relevant. You suggested arranging a survey and planning compliance searches in advance of contracts. That's an outlay of hundreds of Euro, I'm not going to pretend I know everything so I just wanted to learn in what scenarios you thought that was a good idea.

It's not that long ago I paid €550 for a survey (that didn't include planning searches) for a sale that ended up falling through after contracts were issued. My motivation is ensuring people don't rush into surveys or planning searches too early in the process.

 

[SquirrelChaser]

The point is that in some cases a prospective purchaser arranges a survey pre-contracts.

Pre-contract or before going sale agreed? Because those are very different.

Everyone should get a professional to look over their prospective purchase before signing contracts.

There's very little point in getting a survey before going sale agreed though. Maybe when looking at the development potential which would inform the offer price, but not for Joe Soap buying a semi-d.

 

[Ruffian]

My motivation is ensuring people don't rush into surveys or planning searches too early in the process.

I don't think people do - and I am not advocating that they do. But in some circumstances they do arrange the survey pre-contract. I take it you are not disputing that? I could give three examples that I am aware of but the varying circumstances and reasons are essentially irrelevant. One involved a probate purchase and they avoided a possibly protracted wait by catching issues in an early survey and moving on.

You don't need to pay for it twice.

No, you don't. But the surveyor/engineer can note issues that the purchaser may not have and alert the purchaser/solicitor to follow up on.

 

[Ruffian]

There's very little point in getting a survey before going sale agreed though. Maybe when looking at the development potential which would inform the offer price, but not for Joe Soap buying a semi-d.

Generally not but individual situations differ. It can put the potential purchaser in a stronger position, though, if they indicate that they can sign contracts without being "subject to survey".

 

[Leo]

Generally not but individual situations differ. It can put the potential purchaser in a stronger position, though, if they indicate that they can sign contracts without being "subject to survey".

A vendor would be foolish to sign such a contract as it is effectively unenforceable.

But in some circumstances they do arrange the survey pre-contract. I take it you are not disputing that? I could give three examples that I am aware of but the varying circumstances and reasons are essentially irrelevant.

People can do all manner of stupid things. I can't say people don't pay for planning searches in advance of contracts being made available as I am not intimately familiar with every purchase, all I can say is it would be very foolish to do so. If you could give multiple examples why not just do that and outline where such an outlay makes sense?

 

[Ruffian]

A vendor would be foolish to sign such a contract as it is effectively unenforceable.

How so?

People can do all manner of stupid things

I see what you did there!

 

[Brendan Burgess]

@Ruffian

As the seller would you be happy to exchange contracts with me as the buyer "subject to survey"?

If you would, that would be the height of stupidity. I could easily get out of the contract by saying that the surveyor wasn't happy with something.

Brendan

 

[Leo]

How so?

A prospective purchaser can simply state they didn't like something in the survey and back out at any point. They are not even obliged to share details of that concern with the vendor. A contract signed subject to survey is worthless.

I see what you did there!

I see you're still avoiding the question.

 

[Ruffian]

@Ruffian

As the seller would you be happy to exchange contracts with me as the buyer "subject to survey"?

If you would, that would be the height of stupidity. I could easily get out of the contract by saying that the surveyor wasn't happy with something.

Brendan

Maybe times have changed but wasn't "subject to survey" once almost a standard clause in house purchase contracts? I remember signing them both as a purchaser and a buyer.

 

[Leo]

Maybe times have changed but wasn't "subject to survey" once almost a standard clause in house purchase contracts?

You may be thinking subject to finance. In a sellers' market, no vendor should accept such a condition.