Burn the Bondholders

How could the people do that - I mean practically?
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Go on a tax strike.

Throughout history this has been done. There's no need for riots or demonstrations, just don't pay. The government will probably be introducing water charges and property tax, well these are easy not to pay. If people run businesses then they can submit returns, but without payment.

The key to this is solidarity.
 
umop3p!sdn said:
Go on a tax strike.
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But how would an ordinary citizen go on a tax strike - my income tax is deducted at source (including levies), I never have my hands on it, VAT is included in the price of good that I buy so there is no way of me buying without paying the VAT.

I agree that it would be easier not to pay property of water tax or for people who self assess not to pay but the majority of people would still be paying income tax and VAT even if they didnt want to.
 
But how would an ordinary citizen go on a tax strike - my income tax is deducted at source (including levies)
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It's the ordinary citizens that submit payment for these taxes. At some point, all taxes are submitted by ordinary citizens. Tell your employer that you do not want your PAYE/PRSI payment made. What would happen if enough employees do this?

This is why key to this strategy is solidarity.

Other taxes you could easily not pay:
- Motor tax
- TV licence
- bin charges
 
Refusing to pay ones taxes is no solution. And will be easily dealt with by the government who have all the levers of power. If you are not happy with the governments policy ,you know how to vote in the next election. However the next government will inherit the mess and the cuts will continue.
Blaming Europe for our problems doesn`t make any sense. We were constantly warned by Europe about our reckless financial policies during the boom but choose to ignore it.Europe did not make our government to bail out the banks and give a blanket guarantee.We can`t cast ourselves off from europe as Ireland receives a lot of money from europe.Also the Multi national companies would leave immeadiately as access to european markets is vital.To blame europe for our problems is wrong and is only a "muddying of the water exercise" by those who are trying to distract the blame away from where it should be.
One other point is that irish customs should make those who go shopping to the U.S. pay the vat on their purchases when they return.
 
umop3p!sdn said:
Well, I didn't agree to this. I don't remember a NAMA referendum, or a bail out the banks, or Nationalise Anglo referendum. These are huge decisions taken without the consent of the people.
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I agree, but this is exactly what you get when there is zero restraint on the powers and actions of government. Iceland got its vote, the people voted no and the country did not decend into chaos.

Godfather said:
Good point, I agree. Anyway one way or another we all pay... And if we would let Anglo down then lots of our pensions and savings would be gone already. Dont you have a pension scheme to worry about? Dont you have savings to worry about?

Anyway if we wouldn't pay directly by letting Anglo down, we would pay indirectly somehow, for example by being pushed out of the Euro and by losing completely credibility with the financial world markets... :confused:

Am I the only one to think that in a globalized economy a country pays one way or another to the international community? :(
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The only reason we all now have to pay is because of government actions. If the government had paid off all sovereign debt during the boom, had a balanced budget now, and not bailed out banks, then the cost of borrowing would irelevant. Bond holders would take the hit and pay the price of risky investments, not the taxpayer.

Slash said:
And.......there you have it. Cowen and Lenihan do not want to go to Angela Merkel again, after the Depfra disaster, and tell her that the incompetence of the Irish government will result in the German economy taking another hit.
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Depfa became a German problem when it was bought by Hypo Real, and then became a German sovereign problem when the state bailed out Hypo Real. Blame for this cannot be pointed at Ireland.
 
If we were to let the bondholders burn, we actually don't know what the full consequences would be, but we could take a reasonable guess as to some of the impacts
-Anglo Irish would go out of business. The impact of that is that any deposit holders would either have some or all of their funds wiped out or the Govt would have to bail them out under the deposit protection scheme.
-Other banks viability would be threatened, potentially with their own borrowing costs going up (which they would then look to pass on to the consumer), a further restriction of credit to entreprises at a time when that is the last thing we need and potentially one or more banks may go out of business. Again, the issue with depositors would still need to be resolved and in the long term, competition would be diluted further
-Cost of Govt borrowing would rise, asuming anyone would actually want to lend to us. If they Govt could not borrow money to pay day to day bills.........

I honestly don't believe anyone wants to pay off the bond holders and we can ramble on about tax strikes etc etc but back in the real world, if we don't, I fear the long term consequences for making ourselves feel better for a few hours/days, may be far more serious
 
Mpsox said:
If we were to let the bondholders burn, we actually don't know what the full consequences would be, but we could take a reasonable guess as to some of the impacts
-Anglo Irish would go out of business. The impact of that is that any deposit holders would either have some or all of their funds wiped out or the Govt would have to bail them out under the deposit protection scheme.
-Other banks viability would be threatened, potentially with their own borrowing costs going up (which they would then look to pass on to the consumer), a further restriction of credit to entreprises at a time when that is the last thing we need and potentially one or more banks may go out of business. Again, the issue with depositors would still need to be resolved and in the long term, competition would be diluted further
-Cost of Govt borrowing would rise, asuming anyone would actually want to lend to us. If they Govt could not borrow money to pay day to day bills.........

I honestly don't believe anyone wants to pay off the bond holders and we can ramble on about tax strikes etc etc but back in the real world, if we don't, I fear the long term consequences for making ourselves feel better for a few hours/days, may be far more serious
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I disagree. The last thing Ireland needs is more credit. Ireland is the most indebted nation (per capita) on earth, which means that credit is the problem not the solution. Negotiating with bond holders and other creditors is the only solution that will provide any positive long term effects.
The total chaos picture simply does not hold up to reality when you look at what happened in Argentina, Russia and Iceland (to name a few) when they partially defaulted on debts.
 
Refusing to pay ones taxes is no solution. And will be easily dealt with by the government who have all the levers of power. If you are not happy with the governments policy ,you know how to vote in the next election. However the next government will inherit the mess and the cuts will continue.
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It's not good enough just to say that not paying taxes will be 'easily dealt with'. You have to give a reason why.

Give me a break with the 'voting' thing. Irish democracy is a farce. Hmmm, who will I vote for, the corruption party, or the incompetents, or Fianna Fail lite?
Consider that 18% (1 in 6) people will still vote Fianna Fail! Shocking, but true.

So, how will not paying taxes be 'easily dealt with'?
 
Chris said:
I disagree. The last thing Ireland needs is more credit. Ireland is the most indebted nation (per capita) on earth, which means that credit is the problem not the solution. Negotiating with bond holders and other creditors is the only solution that will provide any positive long term effects.
The total chaos picture simply does not hold up to reality when you look at what happened in Argentina, Russia and Iceland (to name a few) when they partially defaulted on debts.
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I'm not saying it's ideal that Ireland needs more credit, but the reality is that even excluding the costs of the banking crisis, it's debatable if Ireland can raise enough money to pay it's day to day costs via taxation until the economy recovers.

I'm glad to see you mention negotiating with bondholders, that is very different from simply giving them the 2 fingers as some people would seem to like to do. Even if we do negotiate, it would be naive to assume that there would not be some negative consequences, for example, it took a number of years for the Argentinian economy to recover and there was a lot of short/medium term pain that had to be endured there
 
Mpsox said:
it took a number of years for the Argentinian economy to recover and there was a lot of short/medium term pain that had to be endured there
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True, and things are still very cheap there. Look at the price of housing, for example. Prices here would have to fall another 50% to get down to that level.
 
Anyone who receives a government or company cheque can be taxed at soucre. That includes all PAYE workers and all welfare recipients, all farmers, doctors etc.
So who is left then...only the self employed and there isn`t a lot of them left.
I can`t understand posters who say the government should bail out private banks or otherwise we will be worse off.Anglo alone is going to cost the taxpayer about 50 billion euros...thats more than 10,000e for every man ,woman and child in the country.In year 4 of the 4 year austerity plan it is going to cost the country 16 billion..that is an average of 4000e for every man ,woman and child in cuts.
Thousands of small private buisnesses are going under,first from lack of credit, then from lack of spending power in the economy due to the cuts...no bail out here.
How can you say things would be worse if the government don`t bail out these private banks...remember the government is under no legal obligation to do so.
Can you not see beyond the government hype and spin? In reality the government is pandering to the rich bankers, their shareholders and bondholders and have decided that the ordinary taxpayers will take the pain.
 
Mpsox said:
I'm not saying it's ideal that Ireland needs more credit, but the reality is that even excluding the costs of the banking crisis, it's debatable if Ireland can raise enough money to pay it's day to day costs via taxation until the economy recovers.

I'm glad to see you mention negotiating with bondholders, that is very different from simply giving them the 2 fingers as some people would seem to like to do. Even if we do negotiate, it would be naive to assume that there would not be some negative consequences, for example, it took a number of years for the Argentinian economy to recover and there was a lot of short/medium term pain that had to be endured there
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It is certainly not a painless solution, and in the short term the pain would be more severe than what we are experiencing now. But all that is happening at the moment is that the inevitable is being postponed and the taxpayer has become guarator.
Negotiating with Anglo bond holders is the first step, and I think 20 cent on the euro is on the high side for subordinated bond holders, nevertheless its a start. The same should be offered to all bond holders.
The same would have to be done for government debts as well.

sunrock said:
Anyone who receives a government or company cheque can be taxed at soucre. That includes all PAYE workers and all welfare recipients, all farmers, doctors etc.
So who is left then...only the self employed and there isn`t a lot of them left.
I can`t understand posters who say the government should bail out private banks or otherwise we will be worse off.Anglo alone is going to cost the taxpayer about 50 billion euros...thats more than 10,000e for every man ,woman and child in the country.In year 4 of the 4 year austerity plan it is going to cost the country 16 billion..that is an average of 4000e for every man ,woman and child in cuts.
Thousands of small private buisnesses are going under,first from lack of credit, then from lack of spending power in the economy due to the cuts...no bail out here.
How can you say things would be worse if the government don`t bail out these private banks...remember the government is under no legal obligation to do so.
Can you not see beyond the government hype and spin? In reality the government is pandering to the rich bankers, their shareholders and bondholders and have decided that the ordinary taxpayers will take the pain.
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I would like to know the answers to your questions as well. I don't know how turning private debt into public debt is even remotely a solution that can be contemplated, especially when you look at the levels of debt in Ireland. It was a dumb mistake to start with and hasn't solved one bit of the problem; actually things are worse, rather than having a broke banking industry we now also have a broke government.
I don't believe that companies are going out of business due to lack of credit. The majority are going out of business due to lack of customers, and are desparately looking for funding to tie them over to the "next boom". Unfortunately too many businesses came into existance during the artificial boom, and an awful lot of them will have to be liquidated. The economy simply cannot sustain all the businesses that are/were dependent on a credit fueled boom.
 
"Negotiating "with the bond holders is a pointless exercise...its a bit like negotiating with the public sector unions. The government doesn`t negotiate with the creditors of small private buisnesses and quite right. Yet it sees fit to pay off the debts of one private bank to the tune of 50 billion with taxpayers money.
If the government had made clear they wouldn`t bail out the banks the interest rates on our borrowings would be lower as investors realise we are on a sounder financial footing.
I have no problem with the government paying back the public debt they incurred.It is only fitting that this should be paid back.
 
sunrock said:
"Negotiating "with the bond holders is a pointless exercise...its a bit like negotiating with the public sector unions. The government doesn`t negotiate with the creditors of small private buisnesses and quite right. Yet it sees fit to pay off the debts of one private bank to the tune of 50 billion with taxpayers money.
If the government had made clear they wouldn`t bail out the banks the interest rates on our borrowings would be lower as investors realise we are on a sounder financial footing.
I have no problem with the government paying back the public debt they incurred.It is only fitting that this should be paid back.
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I couldn't agree with you more. But unfortunately Ireland is now int he legal position where it is liable for the Anglo debt, and I believe that it has to be "negotiated" down.
 
I don`t fully understand this.If Ireland is now legally liable for the anglo debt why would the senior bondholders want to negotiate?
My understanding is that it is the subordinate bond holders that the government is negotiating with.These subbies i believe aren`t covered by the guarantee and should be torched.
 
Anyone spot this this afternoon:

[broken link removed]

And that 7.9bln wasn't included in the billions announced for Anglo by Lenihan earlier this month. Watch the yield on our debt rising...
 
sunrock said:
I don`t fully understand this.If Ireland is now legally liable for the anglo debt why would the senior bondholders want to negotiate?
My understanding is that it is the subordinate bond holders that the government is negotiating with.These subbies i believe aren`t covered by the guarantee and should be torched.
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Well, what I was trying to say is that Ireland should go to the senior bond holders as well and tell them they will not get all their money back and invite them to negotiate. The Irish debt problem, public and private, is not going to go away. It is at a level that simply cannot be repaid in any meaningful way or time period.
 
I hope you are right.
However I`d imagine that the senior bond holders would say they are covered by the guarantee and demand full payment.
 
shnaek said:
Anyone spot this this afternoon:

[broken link removed]

And that 7.9bln wasn't included in the billions announced for Anglo by Lenihan earlier this month. Watch the yield on our debt rising...
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That page isn't loading correctly Shnaek
 
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