Bulgarian Property Exhibition

Clearly people are buying overseas holiday apartments in places like bulgaria, that are clearly bad buys.
These buyers are in some cases seduced and persuaded in a exhibition type seminar or else maybe at the holiday resort itself.
BUYERSwho would watch every penny at a supermarket , end up signing papers for holiday apartments that they pay way over the odds for.
the boiler room treatment people receive has to be seen to be believed and the sellers have moved from timeshares to holiday clubs and now also selling holiday apartments.
please see my post on....holidays,transport etc..... about this boiler room treatment posted on 11|11|2006
i don`t know how to link that post here.... any one help?
The idea of buying a holiday apt is a big decision......firstly buyers feel obliged to holiday in the same resort all the time..surely this is boring.
NEXT is it suitable for holiday year around, especially during our winter months.
Is there a personal reason such as married to a local or if one has some work interest.
What is the problem with renting whilst on holiday?
I AM not a owner of a holiday home but if i wanted to buy one i think maybe a local city where locals live and work. andone could rent out
of course one would have to buy at local prices.
Whats wrong with buying a house in the suburbs of valencia or granada and renting the rooms to local students and keep one room for oneself .
I know i am repeating what other posters are saying....i`ll be talkin`to myself soon.
 
You are talking a dangerous amount of sense, something that is sadly lacking with much of the overseas property "investment" that takes place.

You can buy a great holiday home in a Spanish village, in a real community that welcomes strangers, for a lot less than an overpriced apartment sold at four times its real value in Bulgaria or on the Turkish coast. If you buy a nice property in a nice area that is popular with foreigners and Spanish alike, you will resell it at a profit in a few years if (a) you tire of it, or (b) your family no longer want to go there.

The rush to the mad stuff in the "next big thing" markets is driven by high-pressure sales, as well as the greed of buyers who swallow the line that the property will pay for itself -- free property! Of course if it was entirely self-financing, the developers would hold on to it, but then nobody will dare ask the salesman if he is lying!

It doesn´t matter what you or I say though, there is a fool born every minute, and the said fool and his money etc...

The sad part is that with the buying power that irish investors now have, they could be building up serious assets for their futures if they followed a few simple rules; instead, they are throwing money away.
 
Look, if the locals aren't buying at the prices you are paying then you are being stuffed, pure and simple.

If you are buying, and can't satisfactorily answer the question as to whether the locals are buying at the same price, then you are stuffing yourself.
 
Despite the obvious problems of oversupply and lack of demand from tenants in Bulgaria there is also no established retirement market. People often forget that this is one of the main foundations of the Spanish property market along the Costas. Key drivers for this market are obviously the weather (long hot summers and mild winters, which Bulgaria doesn't have), but also access to good quality health and medical care (private of public) and leisure facilities such as golf courses and spas, which Bulgaria is also lacking in. As Auto320 says the only percievable market is some areas of Sofia, where investors may be able to capitalise on the growing corporate market and trickle down effects of investment in the capital city.
 
Being a Bulgarian compells me to clarify a few points for all those who have gotten it very, very wrong. Running myself a real estate business adds, I hope, at least some credibiity into the presumption of being informed better than the average, about the market over here.

Firstly, there are quite some retirees that have settled in their own, newly acquired Bulgarian houses. Just one small town, Elhovo, is reported to count several dozens of Brits living there (the British are said to account for over 200 000, in terms of foreign ownership of real estate in this country, with the Irish being over 100 000, as the runner up). Interestingly, there are even a dozen or so Japanese pensioners; in a village around Kazanlak alone they have five or six couples.

Second, the person who claims there are just two weeks of peak summer seazon, and that the warm seazon is so short, and in Bulgaria it is freezing, etc., either has something to sell in Spain (the alternative he/she so much likes) or never has spent sufficient time in Bulgaria in order to be able to judge, or both. Actually, like in Spain, there are no less than 300 sunny days per annum, and often many more than that, in BG. The key is, where you are going to count it. The fact is that the climate of the country differs, dependent on the area, the altitude, the proximity to the sea, etc., etc. I myself prefer to talk about microclimate, if a serious conversation is to be held, and to reveal a personal secret, after spending about 25 years in grim, gray-clouded and rainy Belgium, have just returned to my place of birth (Burgas) BECAUSE it is sunny just about the whole year round and it has the most amazing sea coast there is and...

Third, I would agree returns on investment over here might seem speculative. But aren't they so regardless of where and/or what the investments are ? FYI, I have seen my own equity investment portfolio plummet the first time in October of 1987, then again a couple of times in the '90s, then around the turn of the millenium, and yet I kept not selling (actually buying, all the time), so I do enjoy now a very smart ROI. Regarding investment in real estate here then, just to salivate you I'd reveal that I started buying some ten years back land and old houses/villa's, to be offered now with what amounts to ROI of between 20 and 60. Granted, for you to start investing now it may seem conditions are very different. Well, some are, some aren't. Here are a few bits:

(i) The claim that the average locals would not afford to rent, or to buy your property after you've decided it appreciated enough for you to pocket the difference and go, is correct.
(ii) However, there are now plenty of Bulgarian expatriates/immigrants who bring back their savings and put them in real estate here because they, like me, know there is sunshine and nature and sea that you can't beat, in addition to their families being nearby. I reckon that flux, only starting as a trickle now, will grow stronger with time.
(iii) Apart from Western Europeans, there is a mighty flow of capital from Russia and Ukraine. All these "Nouveau riches" who accumulated lots of money by saving from their breakfast inevitably come to the point when they want them turned into some sort of "white", legally acquired investment, preferably away from their countries. And, unlike those of you living at the time beyond the "iron curtain", they are pretty familiar with the Bulgarian advantages.

In short, above points are some examples of the set of considerations justifying my belief that, while it might be somewhat bumpy for a couple of years, the market is by far not that short of prospects as it has been protrayed by some on this forum. True, you would find disapointing offers, people, attitudes, etc. But that's valid for just about every market, as far as I am concerned, and certainly for those developing with such an exploading pace as is the case over here.

I hope above will suffice for those who were in doubt. If you still hesitate or need additional information we have some posted on our web site at www.dukaty.com, and certainly would lend you further advice, should you opt for that. As far as the fellows willing to count the sunny days over here, that could be arranged, too, if need be.
 
Your from Burgas. I was there last january. So it wasn't snow falling when there. I stayed in sozopol and it was -6c while I was there. It was BLOODY FREEZING there. You should work for MacArthurs with nonsense like that. The previous SEPTEMBER I sat in a Sunny beach bar and watched the all Ireland football final, which was played in Croke park sunshine, and it pissed rain all day in Dunny beach. The last 3 days of that trip there were sunny and 22c. Hardly Spain. Also it was the last week of september and the place was a ghost town. The rental season IS only max 2 months.

100,000 Irish have bought.. I know they likes also. When I was there I met a Dublin taxi driver who brought over 60k in CASH! to buy, and paid for an apartment that showed 15K on the title deed. I tried to explain the hammering he will take on CGT when he goes to sell.. but he assured me the agent told him he was saving money on notary tax (Before you say you dont pay CGT after 5 years in Bulgaria etc - It will have to be paid in Ireland regardless).

He and many others will get what they deserve for trying to launder their Irish taxable income into property in places such as Bulgaria and Romania. This is whats proping such markets, this and sales talk to gullible idiots at investment shows - Spain got away with this in the 70's but I dont think these markets will be as lucky, as Spain DOES have the weather and is a far shorter flight.


I CAN SAY FROM PERSONEL EXPERIENCE LAST JANUARY IN BURGAS WAS FAR COLDER THAT IRELAND. IT SNOWED LIKE HELL!

PS. The further north you go the colder it gets so cant imagine how cold it was then in varna or above that in Romania.

Anyone else moving permantly must be doing it for the low cost of living..
 
It's unwise to write-off various investment location based solely on the weather!

If that were the case then many, many people would not have given Ireland a second glance in the early to mid nineties and look where property prices rose to.

There are very many reasons why people choose to invest in certain markets and not all of them are because they buy to let to foreign tourists or because they intend to retire there.
 
Dear Barryo,

Can you please explain to me by which law of physics it is that, because there were freezing temperatures in January it is impossible to have 300 sunny days per annum in Bulgaria ?

Also, I'd like you to help me with the math: you had a terrible rainy day in September in Sunny Beach, right ? How about the remaining 364 days, would you claim it was raining as well ?

I see actually an involontary testimony in support of my claim: you report that the last three days of your stay - end of September - it was sunny and 22 °C. That is consistent with the weather pattern I am insisting upon, a pattern that supports a tourist seazon of five to six months, May through October (for the Scandinavians). For your info, the sea-water temperature at the beach of Burgas last October 6th was 20°C, and I did a 40 minute swim in the sea together with my daughter. The only reason this was the last count for the year is I had left for business till November. Indeed, that day there was no sunshine - one of the cloudy ones it was yet good enough for a kilometer or so of swimming. So, before I go I'd give you a little thinking task: please try to figure how come the Black Sea waters at the coast of Bulgaria peaks at 25-27 °C (North - South coast) in August.
 
It really does pain me to agree with Barryo! :) But, yeah, the Black Sea coast is BLOODY FREEZING in winter.

Last year in Romania the sea FROZE! Watched it all on local telly. The BS (extrapolate those initials as you will) coast is not somewhere to buy and expect 300 days of warm sunshine.

This past week in Romania was -2 degrees and sunny! Sun does not equate to skinny-dipping weather.

The Bulgarian OP has a self-confessed axe to grind. He sells property. Whilst he's perhaps right to say that there are 300 sunny days in Bulgaria, I don't know, then be aware of the fact that there are probably 90 days of sunny weather here in Romania, between the months of December and late March, on which I wouldn't consider licking any lamposts if you know what I mean.

Brass monkeys wearing shades but still looking for welders!
 
The problem with investing in these markets is not just about the weather, it is what you are buying on the basis of, if I make myself clear.

The weather is a factor if you are dreaming of a holiday home in the sun, and you buy in August when it all looks rosy. Try it in January when it is 20 below and then decide! Marketing Sunny Beach as "the new Spain" was a brilliant ploy, but in plain words it was also very dishonest.

Bulgarian property is marketed in Ireland and the UK as a vaible holiday destination with year-round usage potential, which it is clearly not. The Black Sea has a ten week season, two week peak, and is mostly hotel based. There is currently almost no rental market for apartments there, and this will get worse as supply comes on stream. The hotels aren´t doing great either, perhaps Ivan D would tell us how many hotels are for sale on the coast right now, both officially and quietly? At my last count it was around 50, but he will know better surely. The place is closed down for most of the year, and in addition the Irish and UK buyers are paying a multiple of the local price for property; it is a complete fools´paradise and no serious investor has gone near it in my experience. Your money is certainly better off in Fairyhouse on the back of an outsider, at least there is a chance of a return there if all the others fall.

The ski market in Bulgaria uses the same successful formula to dupe foreign investors, ie.e push up the price to something that the foreigners understand from own their home market, completely unrelated to local values, and include two years "rental guarantee" in the price. Then give you back your own "rent", minus management fees, and then goodbye. Oh. and if you mention selling, tell you that it is still going up and you would be wiser to hang on!

I love Romania, and there is money to be made in the local market as the country develops, but if someone comes along and does another "new Spain" on it, they will be equally wrong. The reality though is that the local market is vibrant and growing, and there are loads of good punts to be had if you use your head. But yes, it gets blood cold in wintertime, I actually stood at the casino in Constanta last year and saw the sea frozen, beautiful but bloody cold. It´s not the "new Spain" either, never will be, but its a place where people live, work, and buy and sell homes sites, and commercial property every day.
 
People are retiring in spain due to the weather. The climate is the reason that retirees are selling in Britian and moving to spain. To play golf in january in 20c and ease the old arthritis. The 'Snowbirds' are what really drove the market in Spain. This figure will never be matched in Bulgaria or Romania even allowing for the few who move to stretch their pensions with the low cost of living.

As for outside the weather for reasons to invest, Well of course, but I was responding to the 300,000,000 days sunshine post only, if noted.
 
I don't know who told you to expect 20 °C in the winter at the Sunny Beach: they clearly lied to you. Please understand that in a country which boasts with winter resorts, lots of ski-ing facilities, etc. it can not be warm in the winter. You can't have it both ways. It is cold in the winter in Bulgaria, a good cold continental winter, that is. And with a lot of sunny days at that !!!

It is a somewhat milder winter at the coastal area but still can be very cold there, too. In peak years the sea can freeze at the shores. So has it been in 1953 when the whole Bay of Burgas has frozen. In 1962 it was partially frozen again.

Still, above does not change the fact about 300+ sunny days a year. It may be difficult for you people from the cold island up north there to accept that it could be so but it is so nonetheless: the warm season is there in Bulgaria with the characteristics I've already mentioned before, and if anything, there is a noticeable trend to stretch longer and to get even warmer, year on year.

That is why the season starts in May and ends in October - the two ends are primarily drawing the Finns and other Scandinavians - with a peak of two months, namely July and August. Whoever is genuinely interested in verifying that should check the records at the airports of Varna and Burgas. They report a combined total passenger number of over 4 M for last year, with an average of a 15 % or so increase for the last three-four years. That should give you the flavor only: obviously there are other paths the tourist influx follows.

Hoping that with above clarification the discussion on the weather is completed, let me repeat another point of my previous posts. The gradient in air and especially water temperature is very strong, therefore direct comparison between Roumania and Bulgaria does not mean a thing. I was swimming in Mangalia, Roumania, during the month of June a few years back, and I could not endure more than 15 minutes in the water. The gradient in the water is enhanced by a strong cold stream from north to south, at the shoreline. For that reason, even at the peak months of July and August, the sea water in northern Bulgarian coast reaches 25 °C while the southern enjoys 27 °C.

That's why I prefer to talk about microclimates: in Bulgaria, even though not a big country itself, one can distinguish several regions with typical microclimates that may differ substantially from one another. The coast, and especially its southern half, can be described as close to the Mediterranean climate, still not as terribly hot as Greece, Spain or Turkey can be.

Assuming we are through with the weather factor, the question about the hotels in Sunny Beach is what I am asked about last. I have to admit I do not know much about it, your info is what I'd subscribe to. The only comment I'd make on the topic is that this may or may not be meaningful about some trend. The reason is, many hotels have been built with the intention to launder dirty money. So, when these people would start to sell is solely upon their discretion and may not bear relevance to the normal considerations one would otherwise expect.
 
Agreed Barryo, and anyone who is selling Bulgaria or Romania on the basis of climate or holidays is being dishonest.

The problem with Bulgaria in particular is the huge glut of apartments that have been are are being built on the coast or in the ski areas. These have been sold on a false premise of rental potential, based on a scam called "guaranteed rental". This high volume has distorted the market, creating an enormous supply/demand imbalance for future years. This will, without any shadow of doubt, create a serious slump in prices in those areas.

That would be bad enough, but most of the people who fell for this story have paid an incredible margin of up to four times the market value for their properties! When the inevitable slide happens, these idiots will be left holding a completely unsellable and unrentable parcel.

In Romania the position is different at this point in the game. For several reasons, including the availability of certain funding, this scamming didn´t take root in Romania. However now that some of the large volume sellers are planning an onslaught in Romania, expect a replication of their successful schemes there too. The market in Romania is currently locally driven, unlike Bulgaria, and the prices being paid are real local prices. How long this lasts is anyone´s guess, but it is still my view that anyone getting in there now will do ok if they are careful and stay away from the big UK and similar developers and resellers. Anyone sitting on good sites in the better resorts, particularly sites with potential for apartment development, will do well form the wave of idiots who will stagger in, waving their chequebooks, in another couple of years.

To get back to the point of climate however, while Romania has a nice summer for July and August, it is certainly not a market for retirees. Oh, and you can´t play great golf in the snow -- something to do with the colour of the ball I believe!
 
Weather in Varna this coming Thursday will be Sunny, and a balmy 13 deg C (max). :D
Bansko marketed to me as a year round destination-for Golf and Ski. In fact it was stated to me that you could do both in the same day. Sounds good? Of course it does but is it really possible? I dont think so. For good comparison I shall compare to Crans Montana in Switzerland, which boasts great skiing and arguably the best golf course in Switzerland. Unfortunately it is closed from Nov Early April due to the mis fortune of being located at altitude. When it does open, the greens are terrible, and to be honest, are not worlld renowned. As for Crans Montana as a year round desination-it practically empty in the summer. Now the Swiss are very enterprising people but even they know that Summer will never be as busy as Winter in Ski resorts. Resorts in Austria and France are the same in the summer.
Now the question that I cant get an answer to-why would it be different in Bulgaria?
Real world is all the above countries for skiing and spain and Portugal for golf. Bulgaria is still a developing ski and golf destination-Anything else is just sales talk.
 
Just another word on the weather which helps to back up Ivan's claim of 300 days of sunshine per year.

Looked at the webcam of Sunny Beach from 1/12/06 to date and checked
at 14.00 hrs in all cases. Sunshine for plenty of these days and could find no day with rain.
www.beachbulgaria.com/webcam3.php?c=pics&img

Yes and before it's pointed out we all know that there's no one in Sunny Beach in the Winter.
 
D'ont know Clubman - will e-mail them and see if I get a reply and will post answer.
 
Daddy said:
Just another word on the weather which helps to back up Ivan's claim of 300 days of sunshine per year.

Looked at the webcam of Sunny Beach from 1/12/06 to date and checked
at 14.00 hrs in all cases. Sunshine for plenty of these days and could find no day with rain.
www.beachbulgaria.com/webcam3.php?c=pics&img

Yes and before it's pointed out we all know that there's no one in Sunny Beach in the Winter.
Click to expand...

In all fairness who gives a cr*p if it's sunny in Bulgaria during the winter why would you go there when it's bloody freezing, when I, like 99.99% of most people take a winter holiday it's for sunshine and actually being warm like the south of Spain, Canary Islands etc. So sunshine means diddly squat it's the temperature I check. Thermal underwear Vs T-shirt and shorts hmmmm....

I have no axe to grind with Bulgaria, I don't own property there, I'm heading to Borovets skiing next month and looking forward to it but this sunshine arguement is garbage.

P.s. if anyone knows who the Bulgarian God of snow is let me know so I can start praying :)
 
Could not agree more.
Have sweltered in the tropics on a cloudy dull day and been freezing on a sunny day with temps at or below 0!
Re snow; I would not worry -yet! Most snow falls from the end of Jan and trhough Feb. Its rarely that you hear of avalances in Jan-its form Feb onwards. For those skeptic that say that there may not be any risk of avalanche in Europe this winter, I say, just wait and see. The white powder will fall in quantity this year.
 
Jellyshots

Hope it's not too sunny for you in Borovets next month and that you get plenty of snow with the right temperatures and that you w'ont come back from there talking about the high temperatures or lack of snow or that there was too much sunshine.
 
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