Bridging the gap between 60 and oap

[japester]

Thanks for that information above ppmmeath. After the numbers are crunched in the example above it states:

"The State Pension (Contributory) is separate to your Institute pension and is paid by the Department of Social and Family Affairs. There may be circumstances where a person does not qualify for the maximum Social Welfare benefit or any at all. For example, a member might retire at age 60 (5 years before State Pension (Transition) becomes payable in the normal course) and, although unemployed, might cease to qualify for Jobseeker’s Benefit. Alternatively, a member aged 65 might retire and, although eligible for State Pension (Transition), might not qualify for the maximum rate of that pension because of gaps in his/her PRSI contribution history. In a case such as this, where the retired member is unemployed but has some problems on the PRSI front, the Scheme provides in certain circumstances for the payment of a supplementary pension in addition to the normal retirement pension referred to earlier in this question."

Now this very much sounds to me that, were I to retire at 60, then I would first have to apply to get JSB, this would then lapse after 9 months and then I would have to apply for a supplementary pension to the Dept Ed. It basically says above that if you are retiring at age 60 (before State Pension becomes payable in the normal course) and you cease to qualify for JSB that then the supplementary pension will be available instead to address the shortfall.

So, even though the pension is integrated, and the employer assumes that you will have availability to full COAP on retirement through your PRSI contributions - in the cases of those post 95ers who actually retire before 66/67/68, they will not be able to receive the State Pension (Contrib) as they are too young and will need to instead apply for JSB in the first instance. The messiness continues!!

But it's still not the end of the world of course, I am very happy indeed to know that, no matter what happens, I will be no worse off at 60 than my pre-95 counterpart, as long as my PRSI contributions are in order.

 

[ppmeath]

Now this very much sounds to me that, were I to retire at 60, then I would first have to apply to get JSB, this would then lapse after 9 months and then I would have to apply for a supplementary pension to the Dept Ed. It basically says above that if you are retiring at age 60 (before State Pension becomes payable in the normal course) and you cease to qualify for JSB that then the supplementary pension will be available instead to address the shortfall.

No, you are ignoring that is has been "integrated". The shortfall, if any, is here:

Specifically, a supplementary pension is payable in any case where –

(b) the member’s Institute pension, plus the amount of any PRSI benefit payable, is less than the pension which would have been paid under the Scheme if the entire pensionable pay had been subject to a 1/80th fraction calculation.

If your pre 1995 counterpart received x and you receive less and this can only be due to problems with your PRSI, then this is where the supplementarty pension kicks in, for example, if you are only entitled to the min rate, say 90 Euro, then the supplementary pension is to bridge the gap from €90 - €230.30.

Here is the formula they use:

The amount of the supplementary pension, designed to make up the shortfall in such cases, may be expressed by the formula A – (B+C), where

A is the amount of the pension which would have been paid to the member by the Institute if the entire pensionable pay had been subject to a 1/80th fraction calculation, as opposed to part subject to a 1/200th fraction calculation and the balance subject to a 1/80th fraction calculation.

B is the amount of Institute pension payable in the normal course to the member concerned and

C is the reduced amount (if any) of PRSI benefit payable to that member.

If your pension is less because of the new integrated method where a shortfall arises because of PRSI problems, then they add the occupational part of your pension and the reduced rate (if any) and the difference you are short by way of the SW element, that they have already calculated into your entire pension entitlements.

There is no gap to be bridged between 60 and OAP age.


For example, a member might retire at age 60 (5 years before State Pension (Transition) becomes payable in the normal course)

The "normal course" is normal to non PS/CS workers who are not in a DB scheme.

"might not qualify for the maximum rate of that pension because of gaps in his/her PRSI contribution history. In a case such as this, where the retired member is unemployed but has some problems on the PRSI front, the Scheme provides in certain circumstances for the payment of a supplementary pension in addition to the normal retirement pension referred to earlier in this question.

The gap, if any, is PRSI related.

Go back to number 9.

9. When are benefits payable?

Retirement pension and lump sum are payable on retirement.

Your pension and lumpsum entitlement is payable to you from the day you retire, you do not have to sign on for JSB to fill a gap that does not exist.

You wouldn't get JSB because you would be classed as already being in receipt of a "SW pension" - because it's integrated into your total pension.

Then number 10:

Example:

A person retires at age 61 with 34.36 years’ pensionable service and pensionable pay of €55,000. The weekly rate of State Pension (Contributory) is €230.30, i.e. €12,017.05 per annum. Therefore 3 and 1/3rd times this limit is €40,056.85 per annum. The entitlements are calculated as follows:

Pension = €40,056.85 x 34.36 x 1/200 = €6,881.77 plus €14,943.15 x 34.36 x 1/80 = €6,418.08

The 40,056.85 is the PRSI max SW entitlement x 3.333333, this is then multiplied by your years service and divided by 1/200, the balance of the 55k is then x by the years and divided by 1/80.

Total Institute Pension = €13,299.85 Lump Sum = €55,000 x 34.36 x 3/80 = €70,867.50

The above pension represents the Institute pension. However, total Pension will come from two sources - the Institute and the State – so that Institute Pension + State Social Welfare Pension = Total Pension

€13,299.85 plus €12,017.05 = 25,316. This is the total pension on retirement, it is now paid from two sources.


So, even though the pension is integrated, and the employer assumes that you will have availability to full COAP on retirement through your PRSI contributions - in the cases of those post 95ers who actually retire before 66/67/68, they will not be able to receive the State Pension (Contrib) as they are too young and will need to instead apply for JSB in the first instance. The messiness continues!!

No, your employer believes that you have made enough PRSI contribtions to be eligible for it at "the normal age", however he has assumed that you are and has integrated this payment into your final pension - which you receive at 60 - there is nothing messy about it and that is the point.

But it's still not the end of the world of course, I am very happy indeed to know that, no matter what happens, I will be no worse off at 60 than my pre-95 counterpart, as long as my PRSI contributions are in order.

You will not be able to apply for any JSB or any SW benefit when you reach 60, because you will be told that you are already in receipt of one, that is integrated with your pension. You cannot be in receipt of two SW payments at the same time, when you reach "normal" retirement age, for non PS/CS workers not in a DB scheme - you will not get an OAP pension, because it's already calculated in your pension.

You are being provided with the wrong information and while it doesn't pose you any problems, it might cause others viewing this topic to believe otherwise.

"The Scheme is designed to give you the maximum pension and lump sum after 40 years' service. Subject to a minimum requirement of 2 years' reckonable service (or 5 years' reckonable service in ill-health retirement cases), pension and lump sum are payable for each year of reckonable service (with fractions of a year counting proportionately) at the following rates:"

Your scheme is designed to give you the maximum pension, if this is 40/80ths - then this is what you get.

EDIT - Both you and Early Riser are not integrating the SW part - you are deducting it. That is where you are both making the same mistake - it is called an "integrated pension" for that very reason.

 

[japester]

Sorry ppmmeath, I will have you driven absolutely mad!

"If your pension is less because of the new integrated method where a shortfall arises because of PRSI problems, then they add the occupational part of your pension and the reduced rate (if any) and the difference you are short by way of the SW element, that they have already calculated into your entire pension entitlements."

I'm understanding how the formula used to calculate the employer (occupational) side of the pension works alright but what I'm really wondering is how can the employer (Dept Ed) automatically know how many PRSI contribs I have made over my working life and whether or not I am indeed entitled to a supplementary pension at age 60. Do they contact the DSP themselves to find this out and then automatically include the supplementary pension part when the DSP tell them that this guy is retiring from work for good, therefore doesn't have an entitlement to JSB (as you are meant to be genuinely seeking work to get this) and is too young to get State Pension (Contrib)? If this is the case then I can see that the "messiness" is gone again Otherwise, I am the one who has to approach the DSP and get proof that I am not entitled to any PRSI benefits, show this proof to the Dept Ed and then get the supplementary pension.


"You will not be able to apply for any JSB or any SW benefit when you reach 60, because you will be told that you are already in receipt of one, that is integrated with your pension. You cannot be in receipt of two SW payments at the same time, when you reach "normal" retirement age, for non PS/CS workers not in a DB scheme - you will not get an OAP pension, because it's already calculated in your pension."

Again my question here is, how will the DSP know that I have an integrated pension anyway? Who will have told them, the Dept Ed? I understand completely what you're saying about not being able to receive 2 SW payments at the same time of course. You're saying that "normal" retirement age in my case is 60 and that any pension I am due from SW will be paid at that stage, but, again, is it the Dept Ed who contact the DSP to find out exactly what pension I will be paid from SW (based on my contribs) and thus whether they need to supply any supplementary pension to make up any shortfall?

Sorry again for all these questions ppmmeath!

 

[Early Riser]

I think this might be the link to the document ppmmeath referenced in POST140:

https://www.dit.ie/media/humanresources/documents/pensions/ESSS Explanatory Leaflet No 5 - May 09.pdf

In any event, in this document it provides the formula for the estimation of Supplementary Pension in Section 10 and then provides an example of how it is applied. The example is for a Class A person retiring at age 65 with 34.36 years reckonable service and on a salary of €55000 per year.

While the formula in the document is no doubt correct and very accurate, it is quite complicated and might be off-putting for someone contemplating retirement and wanting an approximate estimation of entitlements. I have referred to what I think is a more convenient and quicker approach in earlier posts, and perhaps it might be useful to apply it to the above example for illustration purposes. For a quick estimate it is fairly straightforward. What I did was simply ran the details from the example through the Pension Modeller for Class A (post 95 people) and got the following result :

Occupational Pension €13165
Gratuity €70867

In order to get the Supplementary estimate I first ran the same details through the Class D (pre-1995) modeller, which gave a pension estimate of €23622. Then subtract the Class A estimate from the Class D estimate. In this example this gives the following :

Supplementary €10457.

The application of the full formula gives a similar result, if anyone prefers to apply it in their own circumstances. ( It may also be more accurate? Although the slight variation in figures may also be due to slightly different values being used for the State Contributory Pension in each, depending on when they were updated) It is more daunting, though.

Please see the original in Section 10 of the attached document but here is the application of the formula it an extracted (slightly edited for clarity) version:


EXAMPLE


A person retires at age 65 with 34.36 years’ reckonable service and pensionable pay of €55,000.

Pension: 1/200th of pensionable pay up to 3 and 1/3rd times the current rate State Pension (Contributory) plus 1/80th of pensionable pay in excess of this limit.


Lump Sum: 3/80ths of pensionable pay


The weekly rate of State Pension (Contributory) is €230.30, i.e. €12,017.05 per annum. Therefore 3 and 1/3rd times this limit is €40,056.85 per annum. The entitlements are calculated as follows:


Pension = €40,056.85 x 34.36 x 1/200 = €6,881.77 plus €14,943.15 x 34.36 x 1/80 = €6,418.08


Total Employer Pension = €13,299.85




Lump Sum = €55,000 x 34.36 x 3/80 = €70,867.50






Supplementary Pension Estimate




The amount of the supplementary pension, designed to make up the shortfall in such cases, may be expressed by the formula A – (B+C), where


A is the amount of the pension which would have been paid to the member by the Employer if the entire pensionable pay had been subject to a 1/80th fraction calculation, as opposed to part subject to a 1/200th fraction calculation and the balance subject to a 1/80th fraction calculation.


B is the amount of Employer pension payable in the normal course to the member concerned and


C is the reduced amount (if any) of PRSI benefit payable to that member.




Therefore, if the employee in the example in this question was not employed post retirement and did not qualify for any PRSI benefit, a supplementary pension of €10,322.65 would be payable, i.e. [(€55,000 x 1/80 x 34.36) - €13,299.85].


EDIT : I just noticed after original posting that the above document refers to the post 2004 scheme rather than the post 1995 scheme. It shouldn't make any difference to the example above (as it relates to retiring at 65), but readers should be aware that sections of this document will be at variance with the terms of the post-1995 retirement schemes, with retirement age at 60.

 

[ppmeath]

Sorry ppmmeath, I will have you driven absolutely mad!

Lol, I I have already passed that point!

"If your pension is less because of the new integrated method where a shortfall arises because of PRSI problems, then they add the occupational part of your pension and the reduced rate (if any) and the difference you are short by way of the SW element, that they have already calculated into your entire pension entitlements."

I'm understanding how the formula used to calculate the employer (occupational) side of the pension works alright but what I'm really wondering is how can the employer (Dept Ed) automatically know how many PRSI contribs I have made over my working life and whether or not I am indeed entitled to a supplementary pension at age 60.

He doesn't, but given that you work for him, and he pays Class A PRSI stamps on your behalf, then he is assuming that you will qualify, that is what you will only see "you may be entitled to" and not "you will be entitled to".

Also, as Early Riser correctly pointed out - he has to pay it because you are in his pension scheme where he promised you (for example) 40/80ths of you final pay and a lump sum on your retirement - he has to fulfill that obligation, in the event that you do not have the required PRSI contributions.


"Do they contact the DSP themselves to find this out and then automatically include the supplementary pension part when the DSP tell them that this guy is retiring from work for good."

No, and I don't know how this happens because I do not know a post 1995 worker who has served his time and reached pension age, I do know a person going through the IHR and the pension payable from her employer is incredibly low, so I asked her to get me a statement to look at how they are doing their calculations. Now she is out sick and has been ill for some time, she has used up her SW entitlement for IB and her paid sick leave and is on pension rate of pay - when she gets back to me then I will get back on to you.


"therefore doesn't have an entitlement to JSB (as you are meant to be genuinely seeking work to get this) and is too young to get State Pension (Contrib)?"

No, you have no entitlement to any SW payment, because you are already in receipt of one, if you wanted you could return to work, but you'd have no tax credits (used for your pension income) and your PRSI contributions wouldn't be of any advantage to you - because the max pension at the age of your retirement, has been integrated with your full pension.


If this is the case then I can see that the "messiness" is gone again Otherwise, I am the one who has to approach the DSP and get proof that I am not entitled to any PRSI benefits, show this proof to the Dept Ed and then get the supplementary pension.

Lol, god love you.

I do know this, prior to retiring my pre 1995 counterparts did a retirement course which fully outlined their benefits (not integrated with SW), I would imagine that the same thing will apply when you are reaching your retirement age.

"You will not be able to apply for any JSB or any SW benefit when you reach 60, because you will be told that you are already in receipt of one, that is integrated with your pension. You cannot be in receipt of two SW payments at the same time, when you reach "normal" retirement age, for non PS/CS workers not in a DB scheme - you will not get an OAP pension, because it's already calculated in your pension."

Again my question here is, how will the DSP know that I have an integrated pension anyway?
0_
As I said, closer to retirement you will be advised of that, although as I said earlier, my friend is going through this as we speak.

Who will have told them, the Dept Ed? I understand completely what you're saying about not being able to receive 2 SW payments at the same time of course.

You're saying that "normal" retirement age in my case is 60 and that any pension I am due from SW will be paid at that stage, but, again, is it the Dept Ed who contact the DSP to find out exactly what pension I will be paid from SW (based on my contribs) and thus whether they need to supply any supplementary pension to make up any shortfall?

What I am really saying is that on your retirement age, then you will receive your full pension entitlements - from two different sources.

Because I don't know anyone with their full or near their full pension age (60), because for example my due retirement date was 2029.

No probs with the questions.

 

[japester]

Many thanks again ppmmeath, how it all happens will no doubt be revealed in due course, the main thing for me is that it happens My regards to your friend who is currently going through IHR, I hope that everything works out for her also. Health is most certainly wealth!

 

[ppmeath]

While the formula in the document is no doubt correct and very accurate, it is quite complicated and might be off-putting for someone contemplating retirement and wanting an approximate estimation of entitlements.
I have referred to what I think is a more convenient and quicker approach in earlier posts, and perhaps it might be useful to apply it to the above example for illustration purposes. For a quick estimate it is fairly straightforward. What I did was simply ran the details from the example through the Pension Modeller for Class A (post 95 people) and got the following result :

So you have changed the formula? If the formula in the document is correct and accurate, then why are you changing it - it's not complicated at all, to you maybe. Do you not think that the Public Sector document that was designed for this purpose provides the least complicated way - as in A, B,C as clearly document here:

The amount of the supplementary pension, designed to make up the shortfall in such cases, may be expressed by the formula A – (B+C),where


A is the amount of the pension which would have been paid to the member by the Employer if the entire pensionable pay had been subject to a 1/80th fraction calculation, as opposed to part subject to a 1/200th fraction calculation and the balance subject to a 1/80th fraction calculation.


B is the amount of Employer pension payable in the normal course to the member concerned and


C is the reduced amount (if any) of PRSI benefit payable to that member.


In order to get the Supplementary estimate I first ran the same details through the Class D (pre-1995) modeller, which gave a pension estimate of €23622. Then subtract the Class A estimate from the Class D estimate.

Where does it say that you must subtract class A occupational pension from class D TOTAL pension? Here again, (and this is quite astonishing to be honest) you deliberately altered the model, because clearly you are much more intelligent then the rest of the thickos here and incorrectly insisting that is is to make up the difference between both these pensions, when the document, you now have at your disposal, deals specifically with the supplementary pension here:

Specifically, a supplementary pension is payable in any case where –

(a) the retired member is not employed, and

(b) the member’s Institute pension, plus the amount of any PRSI benefit payable, is less than the pension which would have been paid under the Scheme if the entire pensionable pay had been subject to a 1/80th fraction calculation.

This means, that if the pension had been calculated the same as the pre 1995 and INCLUSIVE OF ANY PRSI BENEFIT PAYABLE, that is stil comes up short, then this is where the supplementary pension kicks in.

The amount of the supplementary pension, designed to make up the shortfall in such cases, may be expressed by the formula A – (B+C), where

The example is for a Class A person retiring at age 65 with 34.36 years reckonable service and on a salary of €55000 per year.

Who may be entitled to a SW pension of 12,131.60, this amount WHICH IS THE PRSI AMOUNT PAYABLE, is added to the OCCUPATIONAL PART OF THE PENSION and if IT IS LESS THEN WHAT the Pre 1995 employee received, then they get the supplementary pension.


The application of the full formula gives a similar result, if anyone prefers to apply it in their own circumstances.

No, the application of the full formula is A,B and C not A, B,C and Early Risers manipulation of the model so that he can justify his incorrect information.

Although the slight variation in figures may also be due to slightly different values being used for the State Contributory Pension in each, depending on when they were updated) It is more daunting, though.

I would say the variations are because you are doing it wrong.

In order to get the Supplementary estimate I first ran the same details through the Class D (pre-1995) modeller, which gave a pension estimate of €23622. Then subtract the Class A estimate from the Class D estimate.


That is completely false, inaccurate and misleading information.

 

[oceallachain]

I'm a serving Garda and this is a question I posed and a response I received on the matter. It doesn't make for good reading...

QUESTION
As I'm sure you are aware, members of the Gardaí who joined post 1995 will have their pensions calculated differently than how pensions are calculated for current retirees.

The post 1995 members will have their pensions made up of an occupational Garda pension and a Supplementary pension until they are 67/68 when they will receive the State Contributory pension.

I believe there are stipulations which will be attached to the Supplementary pension as it seems it is not an automatic entitlement.

To that end I have been in touch with the Department of Social Protection. They inform me that the said pension is not paid by them but instead by the relevant department where the pensioner worked (Department of Justice and Equality).

The DSP also informed me that in order to receive the supplementary pension one must be unemployed and also not be entitled to social welfare benefit "through no fault of their own". To that end I have a concern that Garda members in particular could be in a difficult situation as they retire early.

If a Garda member retires and applies for jobseekers benefit (applying for, and being refused, a social welfare benefit is a requirement to receive the Supplementary Pension) and is refused on the basis that the retiree is not seeking employment then this could be construed as "a fault of their own" and hence the Supplementary Pension would not issue.

My question is does the Department of Justice and Equality hold the view that failure to seek employment after retirement constitutes a fault of the retiree and hence would not pay a supplementary pension in that case?

ANSWER
A questions raised from time to time is what happens if a person reaches DSP retirement age but does not qualify for the COAP or qualifies only for a reduced COAP. The Circular does not spell out what should be done but it uses the expression “…due to causes outside his/her own control…”. In other words it appears that if a person fails to qualify under such circumstances we would have to continue paying the supplementary pension even after the person reaches COAP age if the failure to qualify was “…due to causes outside his/her own control…”.

When Gardai were put on A Rater PRSI in 1995 as a result of Department of Finance Circular 6/95 there were discussions between JS, Garda C&A Division and Garda Representative Bodies.

However no Agreed Report or other document was issued arising from those discussions. The absence of such a document is very unsatisfactory. In the circumstances, we are left with the DF Circular.

As you indicate the term, “due to causes outside his/her own control” could be interpreted in various ways. In the absence of an Agreed Report it appears that we will have to deal with this on a case by case basis and, further, that we will have to be guided by Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

If we give a decision in a particular case and a Garda pensioner feels he has not been treated correctly there is an appeal system in place. If he is not happy with the decision of the Appeal Officer he can appeal to the Pensions Ombudsman.

It seems to me that a whole load of loose ends like this one, which ought to have been dealt with in 1995, will give rise to a lot of trouble when Gardai on A Rate PRSI retire in greater numbers.

 

[Early Riser]

To that end I have a concern that Garda members in particular could be in a difficult situation as they retire early.

In what way is the Garda's situation "particularly difficult" relative to any other Class A public sector retiree ? The situation, as you outline above, seems pretty standard.

 

[Early Riser]

I don't know if the Dept Of Justice may operationally interpret the scheme differently for Gardai but, presuming they do not, here is the situation in general.

If you retire at 60 (or any time before State Pension age) and you are taking up other insurable employment (either as employee or self-employed) then you are not eligible for supplementary pension.

If you are not taking up employment then you should be eligible provided you are not eligible for a Social welfare payment through no fault of your own. Generally this means you have to apply to the Dept Of Social Protection for Jobseeker's Benefit. If you are granted benefit it runs out after 9 months. You then get a letter (or a form as set out from your employer) indicating that you have no further eligibility for Jobseekers or other benefit and you apply for Supplementary to your employer/pension office.

What I don't know is what happens if you explicitly state to Social Welfare that you are not looking for employment and, therefore, are refused Jobseekers Benefit. Will you still get the Supplementary straight away ? Generally public sector employers seem to expect that retirees will get Jobseeker's initially and retirees go along with this and claim it. There seems to be a general acceptance of this in practice.

Should you be retiring on ill-heath grounds the situation is different.

 

[oceallachain]

In what way is the Garda's situation "particularly difficult" relative to any other Class A public sector retiree ? The situation, as you outline above, seems pretty standard.

A Garda/Firefighter/Prison Officer must retire at 60. Post 2004 can retire at 55, pre 2004 can retire at 50. This leaves a considerable period of time before state benefits kick in should they not be entitled to a supplementary pension. Most public servants will rely on the supplementary pension for maybe three years (65-66/67/68) but emergency workers will have to rely on the supplementary pension for up to 18 years (50-68). This will be particularly difficult for them if they are found not to be entitled to a supplementary pension through a "fault of their own".

 

[oceallachain]

What I don't know is what happens if you explicitly state to Social Welfare that you are not looking for employment and, therefore, are refused Jobseekers Benefit. Will you still get the Supplementary straight away ? Generally public sector employers seem to expect that retirees will get Jobseeker's initially and retirees go along with this and claim it. There seems to be a general acceptance of this in practice.

Should you be retiring on ill-heath grounds the situation is different.

This is the problem. We all should know. It's far too ambiguous. I know that currently the DSP will give people over 62 years of age jobseekers even if they aren't seeking a job. However, the age of 62 will almost certainly rise.

Surely all public servants are entitled to know what sort of pension (including the supplementary pension) they are entitled to so that they can plan their retirement appropriately.

 

[Early Riser]

A Garda/Firefighter/Prison Officer must retire at 60.

I see what you mean here - for most others it is an option and they can work until 65, although normal retirement age is 60. In practice, though, quite a few go earlier than 65 and the situation I described above pertains. Also, they can avail of actuarially reduced early retirement from 50 (pre 2004). In this situation the DSP have given Jobseekers in any situation of which I am aware. Of course, the Supplementary still does not become payable until 60 (normal retirement age). So unless the person retires at 59 years 3 months there will be a gap between Jobseekers and Supplementary.

Generalising from this, I would be fairly confident that if a guard with a normal retirement age of 50 and retires at that age, and who is not taking up insurable employment after retirement, applies for Jobseekers and then for Supplementary he/she would get it. In fact, this would place him/her in a favourable position as they could continue to sign for PRSI credits after jobseekers, leading on to maximum state pension.(In practice,though, would not most guards retiring at 50-55 take up other employment?).

I know that currently the DSP will give people over 62 years of age jobseekers even if they aren't seeking a job.

As far as I know, after 62 they do not have to come into the office to sign on and are not subject to activation. Public Servants retiring earlier than this do have to sign on in the normal way but none that I am aware of have been subject to activation - even those availing of actuarially reduced early retirement before age 60.

Surely all public servants are entitled to know what sort of pension (including the supplementary pension) they are entitled to so that they can plan their retirement appropriately.

I'm sure pretty much all public servants would welcome more explicit clarity on this. But as the benefits of all Class A PRSI public servants schemes are coordinated with Social Welfare, what is payable at any one time is related to whether the person qualifies for a Social Welfare payment or not. And as eligibility for Social Welfare payments and level of such payments are subject to variation, it would be difficult for the general terms of the Pension Scheme to cover this (theoretically, if a retiree qualifies for a Social Welfare payment only at a very low level he/she may simultaneously qualify for a top-up Supplementary). I guess it covers it by saying that if the person does not qualify for Social Welfare then they are eligible for a Supplementary provided they meet the other condition (no insurable employment).

In your situation it seems pretty clear that the Supplementary is payable after age 50 once Social Welfare is exhausted.(I am assuming here, based on what you said in your post, that normal retirement in your scheme is any time from after age 50. Supplementary does not apply before normal retirement age). I guess applying for Social Welfare may be off-putting but, if so, this a fact for all Class A public servants.

 

[oceallachain]

As a matter of pure coincidence I received correspondence from DPER today which states the following -

Supplementary pension cannot be paid where an individual, whether resident or non-resident, fails to claim any of the Social Welfare benefits to which they may be entitled. Where the failure to qualify for Social Welfare Benefit is due to causes within the control of the individual, no supplementary pension can be paid. The reason for failure to qualify for full or part benefit must be determined before it can be ascertained whether the cause is within the control of the individual, i.e. whether or not he or she can take reasonable action to qualify for full or part benefit.

Examples of what might constitute a reason for failure to qualify for social welfare benefits which would be outside the control of the individual could be the level of past PRSI contributions which would not be within the control of the individual to change at that point. Another example would be where Social Welfare rules precluded payment of benefit.

It is important to note that when retiring before State Pension age, the individual can and should take the steps necessary to protect their future potential entitlement to social welfare benefits. Retiring staff need to ensure that their potential entitlement to social welfare benefits is safeguarded, i.e. that they continue to pay social insurance contributions and that they comply with the Social Protection rules in relation to maintaining their Social Welfare credits/entitlements.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

On that note, am I right in saying that a retiree has to suffer the indignity of applying for the dole before he or she can receive their pension entitlement?

 

[Early Riser]

On that note, am I right in saying that a retiree has to suffer the indignity of applying for the dole before he or she can receive their pension entitlement?

Yes and No. The retiree receives their Occupational Pension normally at retirement. But as it is a coordinated pension there is also the PRSI element - usually the State Pension. If retiring before State Pension age, the retiree must exhaust any other Social Welfare payment to which he/she might be entitled (normally Jobseekers Benefit) before he/she can avail of a Supplementary Pension - while awaiting eligibility for the State Pension. He/She could also opt to forego the Supplementary or, alternatively again, could seek other employment. I think this Supplementary Pension payment is unique to Class A PRSI public sector retirees.

Clear as mud ?

 

[Nordkapp]

Early Riser, that is correct. Class A strand 2 pensions after 1995. Pure daft situation, distorts the Social Welfare stats for those legitimately seeking jobseekers allowance, stops retired folk taking up employment as the supp pension cannot be sought if working in alternative employment, even minor part-time employment for a minimum wage.
Essentially, on retirement, your pension is left short the full amount of the State Pension and is to be made up with the Supp Pension.

Funny enough, I had a query in with DPER on the same issue and received today the same response as oceallachain. DPER indicated there is no intention to change this Supp Pension and job seekers policy. Quote: Your issues and comments on the operation of your pension scheme and the discretionary supplementary pension are noted. However, the Minister is not proposing to amend the superannuation terms and conditions for those public servants who are not members of the Single Scheme including the operation of the discretionary supplementary pension provision.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

That is incredible; humiliating our retirees.

 

[Nordkapp]

Glad to see this issue is now pushed front and centre, we live in interesting times........
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...o-mans-land-over-their-pensions-35983067.html

 

[jjm]

The people affected paid away higher prsi than we do at present .The Government finish up paying the job seekers benefit saving around 42 euro a week for the year. You have to wonder why the dropped the payroll prsi from 8 % at the end of 2012 down to 4% in january 2013 and at the same time took 42 euro a week of people who had to retire at 65 many having paid Prsi at away higher rate than at present without a break for close to 50 Years. All this on Leo Watch The Man who says he is going to look after the people who got up early in the morning.

The only looking Leo is doing is looking at them going down the road with 42 Euro less in there pocket a week between 65 and 66 having got up early in the morning for up to 50 years with a smirk on has face knowing that this only affects private sector workers Prsi paying public sector workers in the same position get the 42 euro back from the government so they suffer no loss between 65 and 66 because of the change,

I know the Issue you have NordKapp and understand your point of view well,

Glad to see this issue is now pushed front and centre, we live in interesting times........
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...o-mans-land-over-their-pensions-35983067.html