Brian Cowan and Wage Restraint

Yorky said:
Because I'm not diplomatic enough to be one and I would be embarrassed to admit being one.
Click to expand...

Let me let you in on a little secret. The real reason that you're not a TD is because a) you really, really don't want the lifestyle involved and b) you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of making the grade.

Are you prepared to €30k-€100+ of your own money into a campaign with no guarantee of success? Are you prepared to say goodbye to your family for about 18 months, as you'll be out 5 nights a week canvassing and/or at residents meetings? Are you prepared to face 50,000 people for a job interview for your job every 5 years? Are you prepared to your career dependent on a huge number of isssues that are completely outside your control? Are you prepared to have builders knocking on your door at 11pm at night to discuss upcoming planning applications? Are you prepared to have every whinger/crank/deadbeat in the constituency hammering on your door asking what you are going to do for them? Are you prepared to work your ass off to sort out a particular issue, and then get told 'ah sure politicians are all the same' a month later.

Let me assure that it is a very unpleasant lifestyle. Anecdotal evidence would suggest a fairly high seperation/divorce rate for politicians.

Yes, if you get to the top of the pile, you will do well financially. But if you make it as a successful solicitor/barrister/medical consultant/businessman, you'd probably do a lot better, with a lot less risk.
 


Hear Hear !!!
 

Hey, just a thought: why don't we outsource politicians to a cheaper location? India? China? I'd say they'd probably do as good a job.

Might be a few cultural issues to smooth over, but it'd be a world first.

We'd be ahead of everyone else: just like electronic voting!
 

Have you ever had to deal with peolple in an India call centre? Not easy is it?
 

Excellent post RainyDay, very well said.
 
Jeeze after those posts by Purple and Rainyday I feel like getting my violin out for those poor put upon politicans.
Lets have a big ahhhh for all our poor politicans and their lives of servitude.
It reminds me of poor Padraig and his rant on the Late Late about how difficult it was to keep three houses goping on his salary?

I have to ask if it was such a hard life, why then do the offspring of politicans follow in their grandparents/parents' footsteps?
Are they so community spirited or has it something to do with the power and the financial rewards?

As pointed out by other posters, they enjoy perks of office, huge expenses and large pensions, especially if they have served as ministers.
In fact the politicans from my county have claimed some of the highest expenses over the years. I never knew it was so expensive to drive from Dublin to Mayo. Next time I bill my employers for travel expenses I will have to use the same formulas in the calculations. I wonder how far I will get with the accounts department

Directors and high ranking managers in large private sector businesses can get large salaries. In certain cases they definitely aren't worth it either, but they usually get fired for their screw ups.
Politicans in Ireland on the other hand never get fired, they get moved to another department e.g Martin Cullen. They only lose seats becasue of local issues not because they screwed up and wasted millions of tax payers money.

How politicians in Ireland, which in relative terms is a small country, with a small economy, can justify salaries greater than those of larger stronger economies is baffling. Again why are we so special?
 
jmayo said:
Politicans in Ireland on the other hand never get fired, they get moved to another department e.g Martin Cullen.
Click to expand...
This clearly demonstrates how far from reality your post is. Give Micky McDowell a call and tell him policiticians never get fired. Ask him to pass on the word to Tom Parlon. Get Tom Parlon to email Nora Owens with the news. They can all get together on a conference call and let Dick Spring know that he is still Tanaiste.
 

Thats not what the poster was saying. He was pointing out that politicians fail to get re-elcected due to local circumstances but who was the last minister of senior civil servant for that matter to get sacked for gross incompetence or wasting millions of Eur on a national level. Nursing home charges, electronic voting, PARS system are examples. Ministers should be accountable to the whole country and not just their local constituancy like a CEO is accountable to all its shareholders but thats not the way it works. Not unique to Ireland I know but there has to be more accountability at senior ministerial and civil service level if they are going to be paid the wages that they get
 
What more accountability is there than a democratic election? Most people don't vote on national issues so how do you expect us to end up with politicians that act on national issues? There is a saying that we get the politicians we deserve, despite their many shortcomings I think that on balance we get better than we deserve.

Most people form their opinions on a government on headlines and personalities. There are many politicians that I like and admire that I would not vote for because I don't agree with their policies or like the policies of another party better. Most of the people I know are of the "sure their all the same, I vote for the guy who is best for the area" mind-set. I believe that this is the common view in Ireland and while it is the common view wasting tens of millions on a national project will always be trumped by spending thousands on a local project.
If we as a nation were serious about our democracy, a fragile and precious form of government that is still a blip in history, then we would read the manifestos of the parties, look at and learn about their front benches which will strive to implement those policies, weigh up policies and the ability to follow through, and vote accordingly.
 

Just because you disagree with my post you do not need to be condescending about it.
Did I say that they never lose their seats ? No.
I said they never get fired for complete incompetence.
Has anybodys ass been kicked for PPARS, either at ministerial level or civil servant level ?
That project would have been axed at a much earlier stage if it was been undertaken within a private sector organisation. Also some people would have gotten their asses kicked or at least their career prospects would be seriously halted in limbo.
But in the public service nothing happens, sure the fuss will die down in a few months and it's only the taxpayers money anyway.

Did Michael McDowell lose his seat because he was inadequate as minister or was it becuase there was a feeling among the elctorate that his party were to blame for government problems or was it just to do with the fact that lots of people just do not like the guy?
Also Parlon suffered like other PD TDs, I don't think the people of Laois/Offlay sat down and thought he had done a bad job with the OPW?
Nora Owen had not been a minister for a number of years when she lost her seat. She was also victim to the move away from FG that resulted in lots of FG sitting TDs losing their seats.
BTW Dick Spring resigned from the Dail, he did not seek re-election, to best of my knowledge.


Thank you Sunny, at least you can follow my point without claiming I inhabit a parallel universe. Actually maybe I do inhabit a parallel universe where it would be considered normal for our politicans, and as Sunny pointed out civil servants, to get fired when their incompetence costs the shareholders (i.e. the taxpayers) millions of euros.
So Martin Cullen presides over numersous cock ups and he is just moved to another department.
Why?
The only reasons can be he either has some major influence over the taoiseach or else it is political expedient to have a minister in that area of the country.
I think it may be a combination of both.

It is interesting to look at the breakdown of TDs, ministers and their actual qualifications. How many TDs are teachers, solicitors, baristers, academics and public servants? These are not exactly the type of people you would usually find running successful busisnesses.
How many successful businessmen have actually entered the Dail?
One of the few I can think of is Albert Reynolds.
Of course somebody may come on here and name a few.

If politicans, especially ministers, and civil servants, expect to earn salaries equivalent to people in the private sector then they should be judged by the same yardstick and suffer the same consequences.
This leads us nicely onto the whole benchmarking ficasco.
 
If is was such a cushy job then everyone would be trying to get in. Teachers make up the single biggest group in the Dail. The thing they have in common with solicitors, barristers, academics and public servants is that they can re-enter their old trade/profession quite easily if and when they loose their seat. In the case of a teacher of public servant re-entry is seamless.
I am in business. If I wanted to become a TD I would have to quit my job (and the business and my employees would suffer the consequences) to run for office as there is no way I would have the time to do both. If I was elected and lost my seat after one term I would have to start again from scratch. I would face the prospect of loosing my home as I could not pay the mortgage. Why on earth would I take that risk for a thankless job where most of the public (like you) think I am corrupt and incompetent, just like the rest of them?
That's why there are so few people from a business background in government.
I am slow to be critical of people who take tht sort of risk, who do a job I would not do.
 

Excuse me, did I say they were corrupt?
I said that there are many that are incompetent which is a statement that a lot of people on these forums would agree with.
By saying they are incomptetent, that they are depriving some village of their disignated eejit, is not saying they are corrupt?
So please do not try and attribute statements to me that are incorrect.

Yes, there are corrupt politicans as proven by tribunals and courts but my gripe here is that they are a lot of bloody incompetents who in normal life would get their asses kicked for the cr** way they have performed while in ministerial office.
Are you telling me that it is ok to be a minister in a department that blows, yes blows, 150 odd million of taxpayers money and the minister sails meerily on in their carreer?
Is it ok to purchase an inadequately speced/tested system that is used once, having cost 40 odd million, is continually costing the taxpayers storage costs and will probably never be used again?

Of course to our current government 150 million is only small potatoes, but all those 150 million small potatoes add up to a hell of a lot of chips at the end of the day.
And who pays for it in the end?
The people do, with inferior public services, with lower standards healthcare and with lower standards for our childrens' education, etc.

In most democratic countries, that would be a firing offence.
I believe in all business that would be a firing offence. In some instances there could even be fraud investigations to ascertain how so much money could be wasted and who benefitted.

Sadly the problem with democracy is that if we continue to elect muppets that is what we will get.

Why do I feel you are a member of a political party, me thinks thou protests too much ?
 
The sad reality is that the political system ain't gona change anytime soon.

In fact its getting worse imho, for example, one of the rationales for paying County Councillors was that they would do the small local stuff and leave TD's to scrutunise legislation (and policy) - yes they are supposed to do that! Also, all 166 TD's were given researchers to assist with this process. Has any one seen any change? I haven't seen any...Indeed, an outgoing TD, Jim Glennon remarked in an interview in the Sindo (I think) how everyone (councillor/TD/senator) even in the same party in an area was chasing the same local issue! And you had to be seen to do it...
 
Apologies, so why would I (or anyone else) want to be regarded as an eejit?

No, I’m not telling you that any of that waste is ok. Large companies and public bodies all over the world are guilty of massive waste. Ford blew hundreds of millions on a computer system that didn’t work and their directors were noy fired. The NHS in the UK did the same.

I agree that the public pays but I don’t accept that our healthcare or education is of a low standard.

jmayo said:
In most democratic countries, that would be a firing offence.
Click to expand...
I disagree.
jmayo said:
I believe in all business that would be a firing offence. In some instances there could even be fraud investigations to ascertain how so much money could be wasted and who benefitted.
Click to expand...
I also disagree. Large companies engage in everything from fraud and bribery to sponsoring death gangs. Few if any of their directors are ever taken to task for these actions.

jmayo said:
Sadly the problem with democracy is that if we continue to elect muppets that is what we will get.
Click to expand...
So back to an earlier question; Why don’t business people and those from the private sector enter politics? If it’s such a great job with all those perks and all.

jmayo said:
Why do I feel you are a member of a political party, me thinks thou protests too much ?
Click to expand...
Nope, I was never in a political party and am not in one now. I’m too busy running a business and looking after my family. Thankfully others are more publicly spirited and do give their time to run parties on the ground and run for office and generally safeguard our democratic system. Given that I can’t be bothered to chip in I am not going to denigrate them by referring to them as eejits, incompetent or greedy.
 
I remember being drunk one night, and looking at a bottle of mineral water which was called 'SPA' and laughing at it. Then one of my friends pointed out to me that I was the 'SPA'.
While we are looking at our politicians and top civil servants and calling them ejits, we have to ask - who are the real ejits?
 
Thankfully others are more publicly spirited and do give their time to run parties on the ground and run for office and generally safeguard our democratic system. I am not going to denigrate them by referring to them as eejits, incompetent or greedy.
Click to expand...

Which Tribunal report said that Haughey had devalued our democracy? The sad reality is that a number of our politicians in the 70's & 80's didn't do anything like safegaurd our democratic system but used it for their own gain and for the gain of those who paid them. Votes on county council could be bought and sold. Also, the political system has done very little to reform the over bloated political system that we have except where by the reports of Tribunal in has been necessary to do so.
 
jmayo said:
Jeeze How politicians in Ireland, which in relative terms is a small country, with a small economy, can justify salaries greater than those of larger stronger economies is baffling. Again why are we so special?
Click to expand...

Because, jmayo, that's exactly what does make us so special: we put up with what others wouldn't.

Hugely entertaining posts by the way: keep up the good work!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register