Brexit and the Border

The Irish stance should be four square behind the latest British position. It avoids a North/South border but far more importantly it leaves East/West trade unaffected.
The EU will probably reject it but Simon Varadkar should be unequivocally saying it meets Ireland’s requirements so that Ireland will not be blamed for the final no deal.
But there seems to be a sort of death wish on the part of the Irish electorate which doesn’t mind the disaster that a no deal would mean for us so long as we can gloat at the UK’s predicament.
Simon Varadkar realizes the populist dividend from continuing to be a thorn in the Brits’ side but they are not doing the country any favors if they go along with an EU rejection of this position.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
part of the Irish electorate which doesn’t mind the disaster that a no deal would mean for us so long as we can gloat at the UK’s predicament.
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Loving it. Brexit is funnier than Dara O Briain

However

Duke of Marmalade said:
The Irish stance should be four square behind the latest British position. It avoids a North/South border but far more importantly it leaves East/West trade unaffected.
The EU will probably reject it but Simon Varadkar should be unequivocally saying it meets Ireland’s requirements so that Ireland will not be blamed for the final no deal.
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This is absolutely right. The Irish government position should be to support the British position. The east west trade issue is hugely important for Ireland.
 
I agree we should be seen to support the latest proposal. However I think we are overestimating our voice on this. We have may an unofficial/de facto "veto" as regards a hard border, but after that we're back into the pack of 28 or however many.

From the EU's point of view I can see why they wouldn't want the a la carte/cherry picking sought by the UK, I think the UK needs to find out if its pregnant or not, this 'little bit pregnant' is not cutting it, you're either in or you're out. I'd prefer if they were in, or even if they get away with the latest proposal (can't see it). V little sympathy for their 'predicament', can't imagine there's much of the feet left at this stage they've been shot so much.
 
I agree to a large extent. But Davis is obviously not a lone-wolf. Ultimatums are now the order.
Either you are in the 'No deal is better than any deal' camp or, 'some deal is better than no deal' camp.
 
cremeegg said:
Loving it. Brexit is funnier than Dara O Briain

However



This is absolutely right. The Irish government position should be to support the British position. The east west trade issue is hugely important for Ireland.
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Whilst I understand the importance of Irish/British trade, the actual British position is pure fantasy.
For the EU to agree would in effect an abandonment of EU rules as set under Treaties.
I have no issue with Ireland supporting Britain's latest proposals, but as we seeing they are crumbling apart as we speak.
There is simply no way the EU will be able to take any of this seriously.
Best Ireland sticks with EU side until Brits proposal has a chance of political support from its own parliament.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
The Irish stance should be four square behind the latest British position. It avoids a North/South border but far more importantly it leaves East/West trade unaffected.
The EU will probably reject it but Simon Varadkar should be unequivocally saying it meets Ireland’s requirements so that Ireland will not be blamed for the final no deal.
Click to expand...

fully agree, by being difficult we are playing into the hard brexiteers narrative that we are just the patsies of the EU and dont have any independent position on brexit ourselves. As for Boris johnson he is the biggest buffoon going , at least David davis made up his own mind and resigned , boris just jumped after davis went. Remember after the brexit referendum , johnson went to ground and avoided the media for days, he did not know what to do. He also chickened out of the tory leadership because he knew he could not beat theresa may. He is a laughing stock all over the world except in UK, like the british version of the healy raes.
 
joe sod said:
by being difficult we are playing into the hard brexiteers narrative that we are just the patsies of the EU and dont have any independent position on brexit ourselves
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The question I would have is, so what?

The three most influential Brexit politicians are 1) Farage - a symbolic mouthpiece with zero input on negotiations
2) Davis - now in political wilderness, for now.
3) Johnson

joe sod said:
the biggest buffoon going ,
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As it stands, from my perspective at least, hard-core Brexiteers are heading for the wilderness.
I don't think Ireland would be wise to hitch its wagon to this bunch of donkeys.
 
TheBigShort said:
Best Ireland sticks with EU side until Brits proposal has a chance of political support from its own parliament.
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I’m not suggesting at all that Ireland should take the UK side against the EU. But we should make it clear that what they have put on the table satisfies the border issue. It is vital that if this thing goes belly up Ireland is not in the firing line of British recrimination.
 
The one thing I don't understand is why nobody on the remain side brought up the issue of the Irish border ahead of the vote. Surely they should have been hitting the point hard that it was going to cause them issues, and they wouldn't be able to have a clean cut, but would basically have to comply with loads of EU regulations while reaping no benefits.
 
Seagull said:
The one thing I don't understand is why nobody on the remain side brought up the issue of the Irish border ahead of the vote.
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Because no-one in England, and it was primarily England that swung the Leave vote, knows or cares about Ireland. The Remain campaign lost by trying to counter fear and mistruths with logic and reason. The referendum and the Trump campaign have demonstrated that the rules of engagement have changed. Populism and demagoguery will win out over truth.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
I’m not suggesting at all that Ireland should take the UK side against the EU. But we should make it clear that what they have put on the table satisfies the border issue. It is vital that if this thing goes belly up Ireland is not in the firing line of British recrimination.
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That's fair enough, I suppose at this point when someone says that Ireland should stand behind the British position it needs to be clarified which British position we are talking about - TM soft Brexit with open Irish border or Davis, Johnson, Farage calamity hard Brexit.
Its great stuff though, proper political box office.
 
TarfHead said:
Because no-one in England, and it was primarily England that swung the Leave vote, knows or cares about Ireland. The Remain campaign lost by trying to counter fear and mistruths with logic and reason. The referendum and the Trump campaign have demonstrated that the rules of engagement have changed. Populism and demagoguery will win out over truth.
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the remain side lost because they refused to address the migration issue honestly, they skirted around the issue of migration preferring to concentrate on economic issues. You could say that the remain side exagerrated the effects of brexit on the economy ( so far it has not been that bad but the full effects are not factored in and it could get much worse). Now the migration issue is central to the EU talks with other nations like Italy refusing to allow any progress until migration is properly addressed. Therefore migration was a valid concern by many people throughout europe and should have been dealt with properly by the EU before the brexit vote.
 
joe sod said:
the remain side lost because they refused to address the migration issue honestly,
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I think you make a fair point, but as is typical with politics, perception and idealism often falls short of realism.

Immigration, and the ability of the UK to negotiate its own trade deals are cornerstones of the (hard) Brexiteer mindset.

To date, they have produced absolutely zero in terms, less than zero in fact, on how to achieve those ideals while simultaneously being able to crack a deal with the EU to which they (apparently) aspire to do.

The soft-Brexiteers, another bunch of British Empire idealists, are at least trying to face some pragmatic realities.

The first of which is free-trade.

The UK has a free-trade with 27 other European countries. Some of whom are the biggest economies in the world, France, Italy, Spain and of course Germany.

Some of whom are not, Ireland for example or Poland or Denmark.

Despite this the Brexiteers believe it can, and should be able to agree its own free trade agreements with whoever it wants. I can only assume that would include both large and small economies like France, Italy, Spain and Germany and Ireland, Poland and Denmark.

The answer is, of course it can and should be able to negotiate its own trade deals.
But on better terms than those countries have agreed amongst themselves? I don't think so.

That is just delusional to the point of demanding a break up of EU.

***

Immigration and control of borders.

The UK has one land border, in NI. Short of putting barb wire across 300+km (?) then trying to police immigration is utterly futile.
Instead, ironically, the Farage Brexiteers are jeopardizing the very thing they set out to achieve - free frictionless trade!
 
TheBigShort said:
Despite this the Brexiteers believe it can, and should be able to agree its own free trade agreements with whoever it wants. I can only assume that would include both large and small economies like France, Italy, Spain and Germany and Ireland, Poland and Denmark.

The answer is, of course it can and should be able to negotiate its own trade deals.
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Is that true though? I wasn't aware that EU member states can negotiate bilateral trade agreements with non EU countries individually, rather the trade deal is with the EU itself. Hence the pain Canada had to go though. For the UK then surely, it will have to have a binding trade agreement with the EU which will apply to all member states.
 
Firefly said:
Is that true though?
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I meant of course it should be able to negotiate its own trade deals upon leaving the EU.
I assume it would wants a trade deal with other 26 EU states (which it already has). So for the Brits to assume it can negotiate more favourable terms with some of the biggest economies of the world, like France, Germany on better terms than it has now is delusional to the point of demanding that the EU breaks-up.
 
TheBigShort said:
I meant of course it should be able to negotiate its own trade deals upon leaving the EU.
I assume it would wants a trade deal with other 26 EU states (which it already has). So for the Brits to assume it can negotiate more favourable terms with some of the biggest economies of the world, like France, Germany on better terms than it has now is delusional to the point of demanding that the EU breaks-up.
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Certainly when it comes to the US, Canada, Australia, China, India, Brazil etc that was the claim.
I'm not aware of any Tory Brexiteer who claimed they could negotiate a more favourable bilateral trading agreement with an EU member state such France or Germany directly. If you can find a single reference to back that up, I'm all ears.
 
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