Brendan and David McWilliams on LateLateShow 26/Oct/12

Brendan Burgess said:
.cWilliams was being portrayed as some sort of visionary. He is nothing of the sort. He was largely responsible for the bank guarantee and I wanted to highlight that. I didn't get a chance to develop it.
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Hi Brendan,

I'm not sure developing the point re: the bank guarantee would have been useful. Instead (and it's always easier from the side-lines :p) I think it would have been a lot more effective to have simply asked D McW:

1. "Who would be financing these debt-writedowns?"
2. "How would moral hazard be prevented?"
 
His answer will be "Thr Bonks of course", cue cheesy grin and audience clapping enthusiastically. Then "So folks it's time for a break" from Tubridy.
 
Firefly said:
Hi Brendan,

I'm not sure developing the point re: the bank guarantee would have been useful. Instead (and it's always easier from the side-lines :p) I think it would have been a lot more effective to have simply asked D McW:

1. "Who would be financing these debt-writedowns?"
2. "How would moral hazard be prevented?"
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Your TAX has already been extracted from you to finance these debt-write downs.

Whether debt write downs happen or not you TAX has already gone up in smoke.
 
Wishes said:
Your TAX has already been extracted from you to finance these debt-write downs.

Whether debt write downs happen or not you TAX has already gone up in smoke.
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From what I hear, the banks have been over-capitalised by 12bn. So if the debt-write downs are less than this then you're right. If they go higher though, the question still stands...who will pay for these additional debt-writedowns.

It would be something if the gov forced the banks to use or lose this 12bn too by the way - we'd have our childrens hospital built, a metro to Dublin airport and still have change to make a little dent in our national debt....
 
PiedPiper said:
Are you guys not embarrassed now that it has come out the bailout money has been spent on the Pension funds?
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No, not embarrassed, just still as hopping mad with the banks, but that level of anger went up seriously with that story. Will deal with it on another thread though.
 
I saw the show. Nobody was interested in figures. Ryan Tubridy cut off Brendan Burgess because he said he wanted to give people hope.

We can shout until all of us are hoarse but the bottom line here is every householder in the country now has a home worth considerably less than it was six years ago. Whether we like it or not we are all in some kind of negative equity. The banks made fortunes out of our payments and they think we can still pay up. The banks caused the situation - no banker is in prison as a result - Brendan Burgess gave no hope to the people who pay up. Therefore, RyanTubridy virtually ignored him.

The people need hope without which nobody has a chance.
 
That's a very interesting take on it Leper. I think you're right that we need hope. I also think we need some kind of vengeance, and seeing a few bankers jailed would be very cathartic. I know vengeance is a very strong word, but as I said I'm hopping mad (- plus I've just read one of those desparate posts that sometimes happen on here).
 
Bronte said:
TI also think we need some kind of vengeance, and seeing a few bankers jailed would be very cathartic. I know vengeance is a very strong word, but as I said I'm hopping mad .
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Hi Bronte

I think that this is very dangerous. We live in a civilised democracy. That protects your rights, my rights and, whether we like it or not, bankers' rights.

Greed, stupidity, arrogance, carelessness, group think, etc are not criminal offences and people should not go to jail for them.

If people did commit criminal offences, then the judge should impose an appropriate sentence based on the facts of the case and the seriousness of the crime. He should not jail anyone just because we are all annoyed at the way we have lost money due to their greed and stupidity and because catharsis might be good for us.

I must ring my friend Ryan Tubridy to see if he would like that view aired on the Late Late Show.

Brendan
 
I absolutly do not expect anyone to be jailed unless they've done something wrong, please don't get me wrong. I fully agree with the rule of law and am grateful to live in a civilised society. But there seems to be something wrong that in the USA they are able to bring people to court and jail them within a very short period of time and in Ireland, years go by and nothing. There is something wrong with our legal system in bringing white collar criminals to book. At the very least we should have had a court case by now. And it is truly very galling to see very rich people, some of them bankrupt not seeming to have any change in lifestyle and indeed some bankers seem now to be drawing down very large pensions after having money pumped into their pensions via the taxpayer.

I only want bankers to be jailed for breaking the rules, and for things like propping up share prices. Obviously they cannot be jailed for loaning too much money to people as that is not an offence. And indeed it is not the bankers fault that some people were very greedy and borrowed too much. But then we are at the question of whether banks should be allowed to fail. And the need for proper regulation. Maybe it's time to look at whether banks in a capitalist society is a failed model.

In relation to Ryan Turbidy, that would be a very hot and heavy Late Late and I'd say very popular. Far more popular than the one with you and McW.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi Bronte

I think that this is very dangerous. We live in a civilised democracy. That protects your rights, my rights and, whether we like it or not, bankers' rights.

Greed, stupidity, arrogance, carelessness, group think, etc are not criminal offences and people should not go to jail for them.

If people did commit criminal offences, then the judge should impose an appropriate sentence based on the facts of the case and the seriousness of the crime. He should not jail anyone just because we are all annoyed at the way we have lost money due to their greed and stupidity and because catharsis might be good for us.

I must ring my friend Ryan Tubridy to see if he would like that view aired on the Late Late Show.

Brendan
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Bronte, you've got it right. Brendan Burgess you've got it wrong. Let's get back to Mr Burgess being sidelined on the Late Late Show. He could show no hope for the Irish people stuck in negative equity with large debts. Parents who give sugar and sweets continuously to their two-year-olds complain down the road that their child needs dental treatment. The child can't afford the treatment, but the parents blame the child, afterall the child took the sweets every day. Why blame the parents, all they wanted was peace and quiet?

It is the same with the banks. Remember, five years ago we were all talking about the country being awash with money. Nobody was ever going to see a poor day. The banks fed the greed (they themselves being the greediest); it was like the parents and their child above.

At best, the banks behaved irresponsably. It could not be construed that they did not behave illegally. Many of them headed off into early retirement with bulging back pockets of lump sums and pensions which are unbelieveable.

Somebody must pay for the way the banks acted. They are not blaming themselves (obviously) - the parents above are not blaming themselves either - and the child (the Irish people) must pay up with money they have not got.

Brendan, with respect, please take a Reality Check.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
I think that this is very dangerous. We live in a civilised democracy. That protects your rights, my rights and, whether we like it or not, bankers' rights.
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I wonder though does our democracy protect our rights if regulators and bankers can get away with not doing the right thing? Does the system perpetuate the ivory towers of the elites.

Regulators are there precisely to protect citizens from clever bankers/financers, they are there to put rules in place so the consumbers who don't understand complex financial transactions are not taken advantage of. They are there to prevent people being stupid in taking out too much money when they plainly cannot afford it.

The model of a regulator has failed in our civilised democracy, and what happens this failed regulator, he swans off into the sunset. That is galling.

The bankers who wined and dined the regulator and dished out money like confetti and who knew or ought to know that if you give people too much money it's going to end in tears, what happens those bankers, they too swan off into the sunset. That too is very galling.

So when ordinary people have to pay for the two failed entities, the banks and regulators, well people do have a right to be mad, even if they made too made a mistake in overextending. So maybe on the Late Late people are sick and tired of it, they haven't seen anyone punished and the only ones feeling the pain are ordinary people.

A solution to this mess I do not have, but I believe that we need to have write downs where debt is unsustainable, for those that need it, unfortunately I'm well aware of people already up to tricks to deceive on their level of indebtedness and diddling the Marp.

Personally I'd rather not have taxpayers money bail out people, but there is no other way if we are going to get the economy going again. But more than that we need a root and branch reform of the banking system. Will that happen, when pigs fly.

(As an aside, and I've just noticed this thread is very well viewed, so it must be a very important topic for a lot of people)
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi Bronte

I think that this is very dangerous. We live in a civilised democracy. That protects your rights, my rights and, whether we like it or not, bankers' rights.


Brendan
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Hi Brendan, whilst I agree with your general view is there not something missing here - with these rights comes responsibility and as far as I can see to date no punishment has been meted out to those responsible for running the banks into the ground. Whilst it is not a criminal offence it surely must be possible to hit these people where it hurts, in the pocket. It is absolutely scandalous that those in authority in these banks could walk away with a golden handshake and sit back on large pensions while everyone else has to pay for the mess they created.
 
Let's get back to Ryantubridy and his remark that he wanted to give some hope to the people of Ireland. What do you think? Is there any hope for us? If so, where is this hope?
 
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