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You may not mind incorrect gender reference, but the point is that Dolly does mind it. So while you feel no offence is caused by Mrsman, Dolly feels that offence is caused by Brian (while dressed as Dolly).
How would you feel if co workers repeatedly got your name wrong and even when corrected used the wrong name - would you just accept it and start answering to the wrong name? (A bit like Trigger calling Rodney Dave in Only Fools and Horses). And worse, how would you feel if they started calling you a female name, in front of everyone else, all the time. So suddenly in your normal environment you are no longer MrMan, but are now Mary. Its one thing to do it on a website, but quite another in real life.
Its a matter of self identification when Dolly is dressed as Dolly, if people refer to her as Brian then they are not identifing her as Dolly when she wishes to use that persona. And added into the wrong name, they are addressing her in wrong gender.
I may be getting your post wrong but are you actually suggesting that if I go into work tomorrow dressed as "Brian" my co-workers should just go along with it? At best I would be told to cop on.
Why should we all go along with his little game? If he wants to dress like a woman that is his choice but he cant expect everyone to just join in and play along.
If he decides next week he wants to be a dog and bark should we all just bark back?
I agree completely.Firstly, the main complaint against Brenda Power's article was NOT that she referred to a drag queen as 'he' rather than 'she'. It was her righteous soapbox on why homosexuals should, again, be excluded from what she enjoys and her shock and annoyance that these homosexuals had the nerve to be actually offended by that. That is the issue. That is the complaint.
Indeed, showing some respect for such people may in some way diminish the manliness of any heterosexual male exposing him as a closet cross-dresser and/or queer. Down with that sort of thing! After all look at all the suffering cross dressers and transvestites have caused; for example...er...As regards how this thread has developed, I suspect people's opposition to being told what title to call someone has more to do with a lack of respect for any man who chooses to wear a dress rather than anything else. God knows, you don't want to encourage that stuff.
So should we take from that Purple that you would be happy to employ a cross dresser, refer to him as he or she depending on what they chose to be on a particular day? Would you also be happy for them to deal face to face with key clients dressed as a member of the opposite sex............somehow I doubt it.
I don't disrespect them, but I do think they need help rather than pandering to.
Because for some people, it's not a 'little game'.Why should we all go along with his little game?
Maybe the help they need is just a little respect, regardless of what outfit they wear?but I do think they need help rather than pandering to.
You may not mind incorrect gender reference, but the point is that Dolly does mind it. So while you feel no offence is caused by Mrsman, Dolly feels that offence is caused by Brian (while dressed as Dolly).
How would you feel if co workers repeatedly got your name wrong and even when corrected used the wrong name - would you just accept it and start answering to the wrong name? (A bit like Trigger calling Rodney Dave in Only Fools and Horses). And worse, how would you feel if they started calling you a female name, in front of everyone else, all the time. So suddenly in your normal environment you are no longer MrMan, but are now Mary. Its one thing to do it on a website, but quite another in real life.
Its a matter of self identification when Dolly is dressed as Dolly, if people refer to her as Brian then they are not identifing her as Dolly when she wishes to use that persona. And added into the wrong name, they are addressing her in wrong gender.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you are not in fact a pre or post op trans-sexual, or transgender, or in any way struggling with your gender identity? You can though presumably appreciate that there is a wider issue for those that are? Its not about "being a bit sad", its about the fact that sex and gender are not the same thing, gender can be argued to be a social construct determined by a lot more that genitalia.
I sure people with issues regarding their identity do have struggles with being accepted etc, and I'm sure that they would also therefore not wish to be refered to as a drag queen which is what the person we are talking about apparently is, so it is quite a different matter.
Are you deliberately missing the point that the person referred to in the OP is an activist, campaigner, and host of the Pride march? You know full well its about more than a title.
My poin has been preety straight forward with no grey areas, so no misleading meant on my part.
Your last post is all about what you think, what you have a problem with, what you think of other peoples names and identities and attititudes to gender. Do you ever stop to think about what other people think or feel about it, and how important it might be to them? Or do you just not care?
I am sometimes guilty of presuming what others think but I can fully represent my own views which is what I'm doing, does that not help form healthy debate or do you think that it is better to think of others and hold your tongue even though you think you a=have a valid point?
I'm betting you a tenner is no on both accounts.
There’s a world of a difference between a transgender and a transvestite. A transgender person is struggling with their gender, a transvestite is a man who wears women’s clothing to create a flamboyant female identity. A cross dresser is different again. What the sexual preference of any of the above may be I do not know but if someone is presenting themselves in a particular persona on a particular day I see no reason not to play along. It’s no big deal to me and it might be a big deal to them. Why cause offence for no good reason?
As regards how this thread has developed, I suspect people's opposition to being told what title to call someone has more to do with a lack of respect for any man who chooses to wear a dress rather than anything else. God knows, you don't want to encourage that stuff.
In my last workplace, we dealt with a person who had a full transgender operation. The women in our office were fine with it, but the guys could not deal with it, not by rudeness, but more from embarrassment, I think.
A dress code (no pun intended) is common in many work places so that’s a bit of a red herring.
If I was at a social event or in the local and was introduced to someone who was cross dressing by their female name I would have no problem using it.
I don’t pretend to understand why some men want to wear women’s clothes but what harm does it do? BTW I also don’t understand why people want to have piercings or tattoos all over their body but as long as they are not forcing others to do the same thing then it’s none of my business. Tolerance is a wonderful thing.
In my last workplace, we dealt with a person who had a full transgender operation. The women in our office were fine with it, but the guys could not deal with it, not by rudeness, but more from embarrassment, I think.
Just out of curiosity, would you have known intuitively (if you werent told) that the person had changed gender?
So if you met them for the first time as Mr (after op) - would you have been any the wiser?
A lot of posts on this thread seem to be 'but the person is really a man dressed as a woman so I want to call him he', but in the case of a full operation you are now in fact physically dealing with a she, so would the same posters feel the same way?
Just out of curiosity, would you have known intuitively (if you werent told) that the person had changed gender?
So if you met them for the first time as Mr (after op) - would you have been any the wiser?
A lot of posts on this thread seem to be 'but the person is really a man dressed as a woman so I want to call him he', but in the case of a full operation you are now in fact physically dealing with a she, so would the same posters feel the same way?
I agree that people often find it difficult to accept that not everyone conforms to the social norms, but the 'threat' is usually that people are outside of their comfort zones. I disagree that it is a male issue as this issue is quite similar to how society can react to goths, punks, hoodies, krusties etc.It seems to be the case that many men, and indeed many societies led by men, tend to see a blurring of gender identity as a threat. Unfortunately their reaction to this often manifests itself in ugly ways. I could never understand what they consider the threat to be, particularly as the person/people they have an issue with are at the same time considered to be weak and vulnerable i.e. non-threatening.
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