Brenda Power calls Drag Queen He not She: Politicial correctness gone mad?

[lightswitch]

You may not mind incorrect gender reference, but the point is that Dolly does mind it. So while you feel no offence is caused by Mrsman, Dolly feels that offence is caused by Brian (while dressed as Dolly).

How would you feel if co workers repeatedly got your name wrong and even when corrected used the wrong name - would you just accept it and start answering to the wrong name? (A bit like Trigger calling Rodney Dave in Only Fools and Horses). And worse, how would you feel if they started calling you a female name, in front of everyone else, all the time. So suddenly in your normal environment you are no longer MrMan, but are now Mary. Its one thing to do it on a website, but quite another in real life.

Its a matter of self identification when Dolly is dressed as Dolly, if people refer to her as Brian then they are not identifing her as Dolly when she wishes to use that persona. And added into the wrong name, they are addressing her in wrong gender.

I may be getting your post wrong but are you actually suggesting that if I go into work tomorrow dressed as "Brian" my co-workers should just go along with it? At best I would be told to cop on.

Why should we all go along with his little game? If he wants to dress like a woman that is his choice but he cant expect everyone to just join in and play along. If he decides next week he wants to be a dog and bark should we all just bark back?

 

[truthseeker]

I may be getting your post wrong but are you actually suggesting that if I go into work tomorrow dressed as "Brian" my co-workers should just go along with it? At best I would be told to cop on.

If you had a genuine need to become 'Brian' and you asked people to address you as such, while dressed and living as a man, I would expect people to go along.

Why should we all go along with his little game? If he wants to dress like a woman that is his choice but he cant expect everyone to just join in and play along.

Why not?

If he decides next week he wants to be a dog and bark should we all just bark back?

Dont be silly, he isnt asking you to be a dog, just him, if he does that tell him to SIT and STAY - then throw him a treat for being a Good Boy

 

[roland]

Firstly, the main complaint against Brenda Power's article was NOT that she referred to a drag queen as 'he' rather than 'she'. It was her righteous soapbox on why homosexuals should, again, be excluded from what she enjoys and her shock and annoyance that these homosexuals had the nerve to be actually offended by that. That is the issue. That is the complaint. This nonsense about the complaint centering on what to call a drag queen is complete red herring and frankly pretty trite.

As regards how this thread has developed, I suspect people's opposition to being told what title to call someone has more to do with a lack of respect for any man who chooses to wear a dress rather than anything else. God knows, you don't want to encourage that stuff.

 

[Purple]

Firstly, the main complaint against Brenda Power's article was NOT that she referred to a drag queen as 'he' rather than 'she'. It was her righteous soapbox on why homosexuals should, again, be excluded from what she enjoys and her shock and annoyance that these homosexuals had the nerve to be actually offended by that. That is the issue. That is the complaint.

I agree completely.

As regards how this thread has developed, I suspect people's opposition to being told what title to call someone has more to do with a lack of respect for any man who chooses to wear a dress rather than anything else. God knows, you don't want to encourage that stuff.

Indeed, showing some respect for such people may in some way diminish the manliness of any heterosexual male exposing him as a closet cross-dresser and/or queer. Down with that sort of thing! After all look at all the suffering cross dressers and transvestites have caused; for example...er...

 

[lightswitch]

So should we take from that Purple that you would be happy to employ a cross dresser, refer to him as he or she depending on what they chose to be on a particular day? Would you also be happy for them to deal face to face with key clients dressed as a member of the opposite sex............somehow I doubt it.

I don't disrespect them, but I do think they need help rather than pandering to.

 

[Purple]

So should we take from that Purple that you would be happy to employ a cross dresser, refer to him as he or she depending on what they chose to be on a particular day? Would you also be happy for them to deal face to face with key clients dressed as a member of the opposite sex............somehow I doubt it.

I don't disrespect them, but I do think they need help rather than pandering to.

A dress code (no pun intended) is common in many work places so that’s a bit of a red herring.
If I was at a social event or in the local and was introduced to someone who was cross dressing by their female name I would have no problem using it.
I don’t pretend to understand why some men want to wear women’s clothes but what harm does it do? BTW I also don’t understand why people want to have piercings or tattoos all over their body but as long as they are not forcing others to do the same thing then it’s none of my business. Tolerance is a wonderful thing.

 

[Complainer]

Why should we all go along with his little game?

Because for some people, it's not a 'little game'.

but I do think they need help rather than pandering to.

Maybe the help they need is just a little respect, regardless of what outfit they wear?

 

[johnd]

As I am the person who posed the original question re political correctness my point was that I did not expect the Gay Community to be concerned with political correctness. After Brenda Power's first article was published, in the letters page the following week, the main complaint seems to be that she had refered to Miss Pandi as "he" and not "she". This was considered to be a grevious insult not only to Miss Panti but to the wider Gay Community. Her main arguments were accepted as her opinions and she was judged to be entitled to hold those opinions but she did not have the right to call Miss Pandi "he" That was the point of my question.

 

[MrMan]

You may not mind incorrect gender reference, but the point is that Dolly does mind it. So while you feel no offence is caused by Mrsman, Dolly feels that offence is caused by Brian (while dressed as Dolly).

How would you feel if co workers repeatedly got your name wrong and even when corrected used the wrong name - would you just accept it and start answering to the wrong name? (A bit like Trigger calling Rodney Dave in Only Fools and Horses). And worse, how would you feel if they started calling you a female name, in front of everyone else, all the time. So suddenly in your normal environment you are no longer MrMan, but are now Mary. Its one thing to do it on a website, but quite another in real life.

Its a matter of self identification when Dolly is dressed as Dolly, if people refer to her as Brian then they are not identifing her as Dolly when she wishes to use that persona. And added into the wrong name, they are addressing her in wrong gender.

Except it is not incorrect gender reference on the part of the 'rude person', they are in fact telling the truth which seems to create a problem.

 

[MrMan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you are not in fact a pre or post op trans-sexual, or transgender, or in any way struggling with your gender identity? You can though presumably appreciate that there is a wider issue for those that are? Its not about "being a bit sad", its about the fact that sex and gender are not the same thing, gender can be argued to be a social construct determined by a lot more that genitalia.
I sure people with issues regarding their identity do have struggles with being accepted etc, and I'm sure that they would also therefore not wish to be refered to as a drag queen which is what the person we are talking about apparently is, so it is quite a different matter.

Are you deliberately missing the point that the person referred to in the OP is an activist, campaigner, and host of the Pride march? You know full well its about more than a title.
My poin has been preety straight forward with no grey areas, so no misleading meant on my part.

Your last post is all about what you think, what you have a problem with, what you think of other peoples names and identities and attititudes to gender. Do you ever stop to think about what other people think or feel about it, and how important it might be to them? Or do you just not care?
I am sometimes guilty of presuming what others think but I can fully represent my own views which is what I'm doing, does that not help form healthy debate or do you think that it is better to think of others and hold your tongue even though you think you a=have a valid point?

 

[MrMan]

I'm betting you a tenner is no on both accounts.

Gambling should not be promoted, do you feel threatened by a differing view?

 

[MrMan]

There’s a world of a difference between a transgender and a transvestite. A transgender person is struggling with their gender, a transvestite is a man who wears women’s clothing to create a flamboyant female identity. A cross dresser is different again. What the sexual preference of any of the above may be I do not know but if someone is presenting themselves in a particular persona on a particular day I see no reason not to play along. It’s no big deal to me and it might be a big deal to them. Why cause offence for no good reason?

You see no reason not to play along where as others see no reason to play along. Different viewpoints is all that it is. if people take offence then maybe it is up to them to either ignore what they don't want to hear or accept that not everyone is the same and open their own minds.

 

[MrMan]

As regards how this thread has developed, I suspect people's opposition to being told what title to call someone has more to do with a lack of respect for any man who chooses to wear a dress rather than anything else. God knows, you don't want to encourage that stuff.

That is an attitude that is often taken and smart remarks such as your last line tend to be a crude way of making one argument seem archaic while the enlightened fight on against stiff social stigmas. I beleive the whole topic is a non-issue in that if a man in a dress wants to be referred to as 'she' she/he should realise that not everyone is going to play along (no matter how good they look). I don't see it as people being narrow minded I see it as people taking a completely different mind set.

 

[MandaC]

In my last workplace, we dealt with a person who had a full transgender operation. The women in our office were fine with it, but the guys could not deal with it, not by rudeness, but more from embarrassment, I think.

 

[truthseeker]

In my last workplace, we dealt with a person who had a full transgender operation. The women in our office were fine with it, but the guys could not deal with it, not by rudeness, but more from embarrassment, I think.

Just out of curiosity, would you have known intuitively (if you werent told) that the person had changed gender?
So if you met them for the first time as Mr (after op) - would you have been any the wiser?

A lot of posts on this thread seem to be 'but the person is really a man dressed as a woman so I want to call him he', but in the case of a full operation you are now in fact physically dealing with a she, so would the same posters feel the same way?

 

[lightswitch]

A dress code (no pun intended) is common in many work places so that’s a bit of a red herring.
If I was at a social event or in the local and was introduced to someone who was cross dressing by their female name I would have no problem using it.
I don’t pretend to understand why some men want to wear women’s clothes but what harm does it do? BTW I also don’t understand why people want to have piercings or tattoos all over their body but as long as they are not forcing others to do the same thing then it’s none of my business. Tolerance is a wonderful thing.

Its not a red herring at all. There is a dress code but it applies to both sexes so he would have that choice. Maybe you could confirm if you would be happy to let a client know that either Brian or Molly will be out to see them. Mind you I think I already know the answer to that one.

 

[roland]

In my last workplace, we dealt with a person who had a full transgender operation. The women in our office were fine with it, but the guys could not deal with it, not by rudeness, but more from embarrassment, I think.

It seems to be the case that many men, and indeed many societies led by men, tend to see a blurring of gender identity as a threat. Unfortunately their reaction to this often manifests itself in ugly ways. I could never understand what they consider the threat to be, particularly as the person/people they have an issue with are at the same time considered to be weak and vulnerable i.e. non-threatening.

 

[MandaC]

Just out of curiosity, would you have known intuitively (if you werent told) that the person had changed gender?
So if you met them for the first time as Mr (after op) - would you have been any the wiser?

A lot of posts on this thread seem to be 'but the person is really a man dressed as a woman so I want to call him he', but in the case of a full operation you are now in fact physically dealing with a she, so would the same posters feel the same way?

It was a Mr. who became a Ms.

No, I would not have known she had been born male.

 

[MrMan]

Just out of curiosity, would you have known intuitively (if you werent told) that the person had changed gender?
So if you met them for the first time as Mr (after op) - would you have been any the wiser?

A lot of posts on this thread seem to be 'but the person is really a man dressed as a woman so I want to call him he', but in the case of a full operation you are now in fact physically dealing with a she, so would the same posters feel the same way?

If you go through the trouble of an op then you have changed completely, if you simply dress differently it is a different thing altogether. If I dress up as a horse I am still a man. I don't deny that we all have a right to dress as we please, but our own decisions will not influence how others interact with us.

 

[MrMan]

It seems to be the case that many men, and indeed many societies led by men, tend to see a blurring of gender identity as a threat. Unfortunately their reaction to this often manifests itself in ugly ways. I could never understand what they consider the threat to be, particularly as the person/people they have an issue with are at the same time considered to be weak and vulnerable i.e. non-threatening.

I agree that people often find it difficult to accept that not everyone conforms to the social norms, but the 'threat' is usually that people are outside of their comfort zones. I disagree that it is a male issue as this issue is quite similar to how society can react to goths, punks, hoodies, krusties etc.