Boycott of School Buses

ClubMan said:
Would I be mistaken in saying that no cause has yet been established for the crash so to start saying that either seatbelts, more modern vehicles or fewer passengers might have helped to mitigate the fatalities/casualties is premature?
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Agreed. My post is unconnected to the specifics of the recent crash. Just adding my 2 cent worth in general.
 
Yep, my opinion is based on what I saw on the school bus, not particularly on the crash. I think installing seatbelts will save very few lives, but having all the children sitting down would be a good start. From what's being reported, this accident was unusual, most accidents happen when the children are getting on and off busses, so something needs to be done about that, such as the lollipop ladies mentioned earlier.
 
When they are talking about fitting seat belts to school buses do they mean lab belts or proper over the shoulder ones. As the lab belts can do more damage than having none and some of the children in the bus crash that where thrown out of the windows and landed in the grass survived. Where if they had lab belts they would probably of had back or spine problems due to the pull on them. I personally prefer to only take 3 passengers in my car and forget about the middle lab belt due to a severe case i heard about a girl was killed in a crash and her body was nearly slit in two due to this belt.
 
I heard one commentator on the radio pointing out that the seats basically lifted up and came loose from the bus during the accident, so if the seat belt was anchored on the seat, it wouldn't have been much help.

Hi Liverlips - I'd want very specific evidence before I'd take the approach of leaving an unrestrained passenger in the back. First of all, you'd need to compare any damage caused by a lap belt to what would have happened without any belt - At a minimum, the unrestrained passenger would fly into the front of the car and could cause serious damage to you and any front-seat passenger.
 
Just quoting the start of a thread over on www.rollercoaster.ie (parenting discussion board):

"Thread:- Boycott on Buses without Seatbelts

Posted By:- Trixi ID:- 5584 26/5/2005

In the light of the recent tragedy in Meath, for which I'm sure we all offer our condolences, the move by the National Parent's Council to encourage their members to boycott school buses without seatbelts has prompted me to post.

I would just like to add a few comments to the mix - which are not a reflection on the events of this week, simply something for all parents to think about if you are seriously considering endorsing this boycott.

I am involved in a way in the school bus transport system and it shocks me that from day to day that bus drivers are placed with up to and over 53 underage (less than 16yo) passengers in their care with no other supervisionary help. In a school situation, a teacher would not be expected to care for this amount of minors and it would also be contrary to Health & Safety Regulations which has a set amount of supervisory adults per child, per age-group. Furthermore, that driver has a care of duty to all the other drivers and pedestrians on the road. Imagine as a parent, you are driving your 2 children to school - who are strapped into the back seat but are fighting. I am sure that you would be slightly distracted. Then imagine as a bus driver, you are driving 53 children on the bus, who are shouting, yelling, jumping from seat to seat, mooning out back windows, attempting to open emergency doors whilst the bus is moving and fighting. Think about how distracted you would be. That bus driver then has to find a safe point on the road in order to pull over and ask his passengers to calm down. This doesn't always happen, and the driver has a set rota from CIE to stick to. Very often the driver is forced to drive on with all this going on behind him.

On the subject of seatbelts, it is true that the majority of buses are not fitted and cannot be retro-fitted. However, in the past, we did have seatbelts fitted, they were sliced apart and ripped by the school passengers and definitely not used. As a parent, you ensure that your child is strapped in before you pull away in the car - in fact many of you test the belt before you start the engine. As a bus driver with a timetable set by CIE - Do you think it is reasonable to expect the driver to check that all 53 passengers are strapped in and monitor that fact. Remember, these are minors so legally the driver is responsible for ensuring they are strapped in - and if the driver is pulled over by the Gardai - he is prosecuted if they are not.

I am sure that the boycott announced by the parents council was made in the best of intentions. I am also sure that seatbelts on school buses would prevent more accidents. However in the absence of the seatbelts can I ask parents to do the following:

Speak to your children about safety on the bus. Ask them to stay seated and not move around the bus unless it is their stop or they are asked to disembark by the driver. Tell your children not to distract the driver by talking to him, throwing items at him or ringing the bell un-nessicarily (yes this does happen). Tell your children that the bus door is not to be opened except in emergency or by the driver and certainly not while it is moving (this happened to us recently). Remind your children that horseplay will lead to accidents. Store their schoolbags either under their seats or on a separate seat and make sure it is secured safely. Not to bring sharp objects or implements onto the bus and/or damage the seats. Report all damaged/loose seats to the driver when it happens or if they are there so that they can be repaired and made safe for all the passengers.

I'm not commenting on what happened the other day - I'd really like you all to think about this as a stop gap to make our school buses safer for students in the interim until seatbelts are fitted.

Thanks

Txxx"

Full thread here: [broken link removed]
 
Reasonable enough suggestions if you ask me. Refreshing to see somebody urging individuals (in this case parents and their children) to take some responsibility and initiatiave for a change instead of the usual knee jerk demands that "the authorities" do everything for us. Often closely followed by accusations of "nanny stateism" when we decide that we don't like it...
 
HI Rainyday my point was about that crash that the girl with the lap belt died and everybody else in the car survived. So there is a big difference between the belts. All i was saying is most buses use lap belts (aircoach) and which type would be fitted in all the school buses. I did not say i leave a passenger un-restrained in my car i would prefer to only take 3 passengers.
 
LIVERLIPS said:
HI Rainyday my point was about that crash that the girl with the lap belt died and everybody else in the car survived. So there is a big difference between the belts. All i was saying is most buses use lap belts (aircoach) and which type would be fitted in all the school buses. I did not say i leave a passenger un-restrained in my car i would prefer to only take 3 passengers.
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Apologies - I misread your post.
 
Lap Belts only make sense in the context of an Aeroplane where they are to stop you flying up out of your seat if there is a sudden loss of altitude.

If your Plane hits something head on a seat belt of any kind will be the least of your worries.

Lap belts in vehicles where the inertia of the passenger carries them forward rather than up make very little sense.

-Rd
 
Good point.

daltonr said:
Lap belts in vehicles where the inertia of the passenger carries them forward rather than up make very little sense.
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Other than letting the mob feel better about themselves...
 
It's not fair to entirely dismiss these calls as MOB bellowing. It's valid to ask why in this and many many other areas the state is allowed to be held to a lower standard than the rest of us.

Does anyone know if the rear seat of Garda Cars have seatbelts and or occuppents strapped in. Assuming that at least some of them don't have the use of their hands you'd imagine it would be the Garda's responsibility.

There's a court case I can't wait to see. The criminal suing the state because they didn't give him a seatbelt and he got injured.

Do Ministers wear seat belts in the back seat of their Cars as their driven around?

-Rd
 

Do Ministers wear seat belts in the back seat of their Cars as their driven around?

Maybe if they drove themselves around, we might see an improvement in the roads.

Why are we forced to pay for these people to have this luxury anyway? I think I'm going to vomit.
 
daltonr said:
Do Ministers wear seat belts in the back seat of their Cars as their driven around?
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I swear that I saw Mary Wallace being interviewed on Ear to the Ground earlier this year without her seatbelt. She was in the front seat of her Merc and the camera was in the back seat.

I called into the show's comment line and they called me back sometime later saying that she did have her seatbelt on, but I'm not sure if I believe them.

But back to the lap belts - While I've no doubt that they are not as effective as 3-point belts, I presume they are far more effective than no belt at all?
 
>> It's not fair to entirely dismiss these calls as MOB bellowing.
>I think it is.

Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean they're wrong.
Just because a lot of people believe something doesn't mean that it's the result
of MOB-think. It could be that a lot of people are just right.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of MOBs. I sometimes even wonder about Democracy. But I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask why children below the age of consent in moving vehicles should not be wearing seatbelts.

It's also perfectly reasonable to ask why a Minister can dismiss the calls saying it would take years to upgrade the School Bus fleet, when there have been calls for years to do just that.

I didn't want a knee jerk reaction of installing seat belts in every bus immediately. But I definitely didn't want the minister falling over herself in a rush to rule it out. It smacked of thinking motivated by Finance rather than the right thing to do.

Given how long they have to spend "considering" other issues, and awaiting the results of reports and tribunals, and refusing to comment until all investigations are complete, it was interesting to note the speed with which the minister ruled out Seat Belts.

-Rd
 
Well I suppose what's interesting is that they chat on about fitting the existing stock with seatbelts but as a matter of fact, a large majority of the school bus stock consists of private operators using their own coaches which are hired out to Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus on a per route basis.

If legislation were to be passed setting out that these private operators couldn't get a route without having a fully seatbelted coach, then that would eliminate a massive chunk of the school coaches on the road without restraints. Indeed it would increase safety for an awful lot of general private hire work too.

AFAIK most coaches that are fitted with belts would have lapbelts and not 3 point restraints. Of course, it's all completely academic if people and/or children don't use the blinking things!

Q for yez all - Do you believe that the bus driver should be held responsible for minor passengers that don't use the provided belts?
 
daltonr said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of MOBs.
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Not taking the piss (honestly) but just to clarify I was referring to the "mob" and not MOBs which, in light of Kevin Myers' recent infamous piece, might be understood by some people to be an acronym for "Mothers Of Bastards".
 
The talk about seat belts on school buses annoys me because I am horrified as a driver at observing very young children travelling in the front of their parents cars with no seatbelts and possibily even standing up. My children were not allowed to travel in the front of the car until they were fourteen years of age (which was the law then) does that law still apply?) We had numurous discussions and debates (rows) about it but the law was on my side .
 
Q for yez all - Do you believe that the bus driver should be held responsible for minor passengers that don't use the provided belts?
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I believe a bus load of children should have 1 if not 2 assistants for the driver. This should be a legal requirement. A driver should refuse to drive a bus unless he has his assistants.

BTW Good Bus drivers will happily refuse to drive a bus which is breaching the rules, and contrary to what you might think, a good Bus company won't take it out on the driver.

I know, I once drove 4 Spanish Students from Waterford to Dublin Airport because I knew a driver who didn't want to overload his bus. His company had no problem with him doing this and gave me some cash to cover mileage. He still drives for them.

-Rd
 
franmac said:
The talk about seat belts on school buses annoys me because I am horrified as a driver at observing very young children travelling in the front of their parents cars with no seatbelts and possibily even standing up. My children were not allowed to travel in the front of the car until they were fourteen years of age (which was the law then) does that law still apply?) We had numurous discussions and debates (rows) about it but the law was on my side .
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I share your horror, but it really doesn't matter whether they are in the front or the back. The problem is with them being unrestrained. There was an item on the UK news over the weekend about a young child killed when (I think) he fell out of a car driven by his mother with 6 other kids on the back seat on the way to/from a party. I witness cars with unrestrained kids every day (including a very large Merc today with 2 restrained kids & 1 unrestrained - I guess Mummy just leaves the one kid who bugs her unrestrained and lets nature take its course.
 
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