Banned Topic Bought an apartment in "Sunny Beach, Bulgaria" 5 years ago: cut my losses?

[GDE]

If you look closely at these investments, you will find that the likes of Quinlan are investing other people's money in these proposals, not their own.

And to be honest, they are not that smart if they are pumping money into probably the worst market in europe right now for holiday property. At all these property expos there are still dozens of agents pumping bulgaria. The penny just hasnt dropped with them yet, they keep catching it before it hits the ground in the hope that things will change.
If you cant sell your property and cant get a rental yield the market is bad, simple as that

 

[ajapale]

....And to be honest, they are not that smart if they are pumping money into probably the worst market in europe ....

I think you are missing ubis point. They are investing other peoples money not their own! Effectively you have a private company (with much less onerous regulatory requirements) investing other peoples money in the largely unregulated overseas property market. IMO this is very clever indeed!

 

[kkman]

i dont think the situation in bulgaria is as bad as people are making out. i just got an e mail from another person who sold with profit in sunny beach.

 

[ClubMan]

What's your survey sample size, methodology and overall results so?

 

[Waynecarr]

I think you are missing ubis point. They are investing other peoples money not their own! Effectively you have a private company (with much less onerous regulatory requirements) investing other peoples money in the largely unregulated overseas property market. IMO this is very clever indeed!

What does it matter who's money it is. This is a very successful private equity firm with extremely high end clients who expect a return which has been provided for them to date. Do you think they have suddenly turned 'stupid' in there investment rationale and stuck a pin in a map for a country to invest in. They are not investing in Bulgaria to lose money

 

[ecstatic]

if you look at quinlans return on there polish property which was based close to stare miasto there return is negative compared to the average return on polish real estate over same period.

Granted its only one instance and one swallow doesnt make a summer but when they sold they hit front papers for amount they made which was smaller return compared to actual average.

The point is these guys might be good with tax but there not so good with property returns.

 

[kkman]

What's your survey sample size, methodology and overall results so?

i dont remember mentioning anything about surveys, methods or results. never claimed to have carried out the above either

 

[GDE]

What does it matter who's money it is. This is a very successful private equity firm with extremely high end clients who expect a return which has been provided for them to date. Do you think they have suddenly turned 'stupid' in there investment rationale and stuck a pin in a map for a country to invest in. They are not investing in Bulgaria to lose money

Wayne I think your logic there is flawed. UBS who have lost $38 billion this year are (were!) a very successful firm with high end clients. JP Morgan, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs would be considered succesful firms and all have losses in the billions because they chose to invest in the wrong product.

I dont know the ins and outs of this 300mil investment and perhaps it is structured in a certain way that the clients will get their return, quinlan are probably guaranteeing it through their own capital.
However it doesnt mean its a smart place to invest. While Spain is obvioiusly on a big downturn you will still see "independent" articles in newspapers that say its not all that bad, despite hundreds if not thousands of real estate agencies going under in the last 24 months.
Theres dozens of agents promoting bulgaria still, why wouldnt they when the developers are paying them sometimes over 15% commission to sell their properties.
How bad does it have to get before some people will acknowledge the state of the market there? KK man wants to sell his prime location apartment in the main holiday resort of Bulgaria he bought 5 years ago. Surely he could expect 5% a year capital appreciation for such a purchase, but instead he's struggling to get out with any profit at all.

If you can find me some logic backing investment into bulgarian holiday apartments I would be impressed

 

[PEP]

I've turned over 10% profits in bansko twice this year, bought off desperate sellers and sold one to an austrian and the other to an irish person, they were in great locations and secondhhand, had both sales closed by end of season, will buy another if i can buy that close to the gondola again for same money

 

[angela59]

Hi,

While flying from spain today I notice that Aer Lingus are opening a route from dublin to Bourgas. This might be good news for investors in Bulgaria!

 

[kkman]

I've turned over 10% profits in bansko twice this year, bought off desperate sellers and sold one to an austrian and the other to an irish person, they were in great locations and secondhhand, had both sales closed by end of season, will buy another if i can buy that close to the gondola again for same money

was this 10% profit after paying your taxes?

 

[PetPal]

I've turned over 10% profits in bansko twice this year, bought off desperate sellers and sold one to an austrian and the other to an irish person, they were in great locations and secondhhand, had both sales closed by end of season, will buy another if i can buy that close to the gondola again for same money

PEP - do you have any interest in buying in Sunny Beach (or know of one who has)? Can you PM me anyway, if you wouldn't mind, as I would like to talk. Thank you.

 

[jackfrench]

The morgage rate in Bulgaria would have to drop significantly, graeter restrictions regarding the amount that is being built,cheaper flights will help,but it has never had what i regard as a potentially long rental season either in the mountains or sunny beach.
unrealistic rental and capital appreciation forcasts were widely touted by unregulated self appointed investment specialists in suits.
The only thing real about it all was that the majority of people were paying far too much in the first place.
so called investment companies have been throwing other peoples money into such projects buying cheap land only to make money for themselves with little or no chance of ever making money for the clients.
The fact that people are finding it difficult to realise a profit after 5 years when there has been high gains elsewhere,speaks volumes to me,

 

[Goldberg]

Yes, Russians are buying and so are the locals, if you can tap into the markets you have a chance. Bulgaria is not over, but if it is costing you and you cant generate income from the property, then maybe cutting losses is an option

 

[rory22]

Hi kkman,

Did you decide to try and sell your apartment this year? I haven't logged onto the site for a while so the thread has grown a lot. Just to clear up a couple of questions I've been asked by email and posts. I sold my apartment for 20% more than I paid but after costs I would have to say I realistically made 5%. The reason is that I paid the EA 10% which is why I sold it quickly. For anybody looking to sell now I think this is the best time of year for selling finished apartments as there is more foot fall and people, such as Russians, like to walk in and see a place before they buy so they can see the views etc. I also think that if anybody wants out now they will have to be willing to offer the EA's 10% minimum as developers are offering that and more. If they have client's coming on inspection trips what are they going to try and sell - a brand new unit in a recently completed development where they will get 10-15% or a 1-5 year old development where they will get much less commission?
If I had to sell this year I would go over for a couple of weeks early in the summer, get as many agents to put it on there books as possible and also stage the apartment a little as you would here. The guy that sold for me said that it is amazing the amount of people that try to sell an apartment that has not been aired for 6 months so has dust and dirt everywhere.

 

[Daddy]

Rory:

Was your property frontline ?

Who was the agent who sold for you ?

 

[rory22]

Hi Daddy,

It was front line with great views toward St Vlas. I will send you the agent details by pm so I don't break any posting guidelines.

 

[kkman]

Hi kkman,

Did you decide to try and sell your apartment this year? I haven't logged onto the site for a while so the thread has grown a lot. Just to clear up a couple of questions I've been asked by email and posts. I sold my apartment for 20% more than I paid but after costs I would have to say I realistically made 5%. The reason is that I paid the EA 10% which is why I sold it quickly. For anybody looking to sell now I think this is the best time of year for selling finished apartments as there is more foot fall and people, such as Russians, like to walk in and see a place before they buy so they can see the views etc. I also think that if anybody wants out now they will have to be willing to offer the EA's 10% minimum as developers are offering that and more. If they have client's coming on inspection trips what are they going to try and sell - a brand new unit in a recently completed development where they will get 10-15% or a 1-5 year old development where they will get much less commission?
If I had to sell this year I would go over for a couple of weeks early in the summer, get as many agents to put it on there books as possible and also stage the apartment a little as you would here. The guy that sold for me said that it is amazing the amount of people that try to sell an apartment that has not been aired for 6 months so has dust and dirt everywhere.

hello rory,
thanks a mill for the advice, i will probably heed your advice and go over there during the summer and meet a few auctioneers. I have spoke to a few people recentlywho have sold with profit like yourself so all may not be as bad as some people like to make it out to be....

 

[Baldy]

And to be honest, they are not that smart if they are pumping money into probably the worst market in europe right now for holiday property. At all these property expos there are still dozens of agents pumping bulgaria. The penny just hasnt dropped with them yet, they keep catching it before it hits the ground in the hope that things will change.
If you cant sell your property and cant get a rental yield the market is bad, simple as that

You cant compare what Quinlans are doing in Bulgaria with apartments on the sea. They are developing commercial property - which is dependant on the fundamentals of the Bulgarian consumer. They dont develop holiday homes for expos at the RDS.

 

[Homer]

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