Bank of Ireland BoI Staff on fixed rates who are not getting their trackers back

Status
Not open for further replies.

Strandski10

Registered User
Messages
8
2006Mortgage - I agree re forming a group. It may be our best chance. If anyone who hasn't emailed their details to TMH2017's email account boistafftracker@gmail com please do so as our strength will be in numbers.
Our CEO is before the Finance Committee this Thursday morning at 9.30a.m.
Fingers crossed the members will bring up our case strongly.
 

Rossie

Registered User
Messages
30
Hi all. I think the outcome from the recent finance committee is as good as we could have hoped for? If BOI are ever to agree that we should be included for redress, they are not going to do so as they sit in front of the Finance Committee, in person and on live TV. It has now been made clear that while BOI management think their review is near complete, c. 200 staff don't agree; and we also got some good press coverage - thank you, Irish Times.

In terms of further actions, I understand that the Finance Committee cannot deal with individual queries, but our elected representatives can, and it is in fact their job to lobby for us, if they support our position. So, we continue to write to our local TDs. It is not enough for them to ask once; they should ask and ask and ask again. We can write to the Central Bank at code@centralbank.ie and ask them to confirm if their view aligns with that of BOI, and to outline why. For those of us who have open cases with the FSO or who have yet to take their case to the FSO, this is more critical than ever ever, and if anyone here in that position can post any updates they receive from the FSO that will be helpful. We can't go to the FSO again, but I know some people on here have files open with them and they provided evidence that we did not have when we went to the FSO several years ago now. Finally, we can group together and / or seek the advice of Padraic Kissane. I know we will reach out to Padraic now. We hadn't to date as we had hoped it would get resolved as part of the wider review.

I haven't read many of the other threads on Tracker Mortgages. I don't have time and each cohort's circumstances are so diffferent. However, of the ones I have read where they have been successful, the common trait has been their perseverance. They kept going back, and they kept opening up new fronts when old ones were closed off. And we have to do the same. At the start of this review, all the banks said there was "nothing to see here", and that they had acted correctly. And look what has been achieved since then? This post has somehow turned into a call to arms, but we have nothing to lose except our variable rate mortgages!
 

TMH2017

Frequent Poster
Messages
59
Agree wholeheartedly with this - from my own perspective Padraic is reviewing my letter from BOI so hopefully hear from him soon and the more people that can form a group on this the better (please email boistafftracker@gmail). Other options include potential legal action (as a group) noting there was a recent legal case in favour of customer where an email was considered part of the contract even though it was not written in the Offer Letter.
 

Rossie

Registered User
Messages
30
Hi all. Just an update in terms of correspondence. I wrote to the Central Bank and received the following reply:

The Central Bank’s Tracker Examination is focused on ensuring that lenders provide fair outcomes for all customers impacted by tracker related failings both from a contractual and transparency perspective. The Central Bank does not have a statutory role in investigating individual consumer complaints, however we use any information that we receive directly from consumers to guide the scope of our broader supervisory work.

The Central Bank is not in a position to comment on individual firm’s supervisory engagement. However, in order to assist tracker customers as much as we can, in very limited circumstances, we have provided clarity on some issues where it is possible to do so. During our most recent appearance before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach on 10 May 2018, the Central Bank of Ireland set out that following consideration of this particular staff issue, that it does not propose to take any further action.

We have engaged with Padraic Kissane and he is to revert to us with any update he might have by the end of August.

I continue to write to our local TDs and the Chairman of the Finance Committee (sending another letter this evening).

And we can't go to the FSO again so I'd be keen to know if anyone else on here has heard anything from them since BOI appeared before the Committee at the start of July. They should be starting to send comms now, I would have thought.

Thanks all.
 

M123@6

Registered User
Messages
4
Hi all, I received the following reply from the FSO:

"The Bank (as in BOI) responded by letter and detailed that the mortgage loan account was not within scope of the examination, that the account had not been identified as impacted as yet, but that the examination was ongoing, with Central Bank Assurance work being completed.

Therefore, having considered the matter at length, I have come to the view that the best way of ensuring that this office has all of the necessary information to deal with this complaint is to await the outcome of the examination and the conclusion of the central bank Assurance work. For this reason, it is necessary to place this complaint on hold pending confirmation of the impact, if any, of the examination on the mortgage loan account."

It will.be interesting to see what the FSO and CB think of the recent case where emails were considered part of the contract albeit not detailed in the offer letter.

If you think Paraic wants a copy of this letter just let me know and ill email it.

Thanks
 

Rossie

Registered User
Messages
30
Thanks both, for sharing those letters. Messages are still very mixed? But hopefully that means there is still hope? It looks like the matter is still being debated, but maybe not for much longer, so we just need to keep asking the Committee and our elected reps to advocate strongly for us.
 

TMH2017

Frequent Poster
Messages
59
thanks for all the updates - not to sound negative but looks like CB has agreed with BOI's view on our cohort , that's the vibe I am getting internally in BOI from discussions with a few people.
I think the FSO is just waiting for the final letter from CB before starting the process on o/s FSO complaints on this issue and who knows how they will come out on this topic - I am one who has gone to FSO previously so only hope is the political/publicity route in the short term to keep this in the public eye i.e. good to see continued questions post the results re this issue - otherwise for those who have gone to FSO looks like legal route may be only option although PK is still reviewing my response letter from BOI at present.
 

Keefor

Registered User
Messages
5
Hi All I am only seeing these threads now. Thanks for all your posts!

In summary my situation is as follows:

* BOI staff member for 7 years until Dec 2012. I haven't yet contacted the CB or FSO.

*Originally on a variable in 2006 for 2 mortgages. Originally thought I was signing up to a tracker but after been sent the trackers mortgage docs, I was also sent variable mortgage docs by BOI too. BOI told me to sign the variable mortgage docs and when I queried why not the tracker mortgage docs they said just sign the Var docs now as you can move to a tracker in the future. They also mentioned that all BOI staff have an option to move to trackers so I didn't think to argue too much at the time.

*Moved to fixed in Jan 07. Before moving I queried with BOI on the phone if I could move to tracker after the fixed period and I was told yes. I asked this question a number of times over the process of changing to fixed and I was told by BOI constantly that I could move to tracker at the end of the fixed period. I again wasn't too worried because that was what all staff members were constantly been told by BOI mortgages. All staff I knew thought they were entitled to tracker mortgages.

* The insite article in October 08 (refer post 88) stated staff on the 3.95% fixed rate will move to 0.75% ECB tracker rate - this also assured me that I would move to a tracker.

*BOI internal systems up to quarter 4 of 2008 has all staff 2 year mortgages moving to a tracker rate - this also provided me with assurance of my ability to move to a tracker.

*My fixed mortgage docs has wording such as "if the loan is moving to a tracker....." - Again I thought this implied I have a right to move to a tracker at the end of the fixed period.

*BOI press release in Feb 06 (refer post 22/23) - this also states new fixed mortgages would move to a tracker.

I intend to follow up on this in all ways I can, I will also email boistafftracker (above in post #76) and keep everyone informed of any updates. Thanks
 

Ahv2c9

New Member
Messages
2
I have been steered to this forum by an ex-colleague and am too affected by the staff 2 year fixed rate - with no redress.
I wrote to Bank of Ireland in 2013 questioning why I was not rolled onto the tracker rate, but was fobbed off -citing my original mortgage which was variable and ignoring the clause in the 20 November letter advising that "those who opened their mortgage account on a fixed rate, or took the option of further fixed rates at previous roll-over times, will have a tracker option on their roll-over..."
Believing I fell into the latter, I argued my case but to no avail at that point in time.

I wrote to Bank of Ireland in August 2017 and my case was included in the scope of the tracker mortgage examination team. I received correspondence from them through 2017 all advising the examination was "ongoing".
I also took advise from two solicitors, one of whom wrote to the Bank arguing discrimination in February 2018. This letter seemed to bring some attention to my case, and I received a response from Group Customer Complaints in May 2018 advising that my mortgage was "not currently identified as impacted by the Central Bank tracker review process" (although the tracker examination team never actually communicated this in writing). This letter also contradicted the category 1 of the November 2008 letter (those who opened on a fixed or moved to a fixed will have tracker) by further qualifying this statement "in order to fall into category 1, you would have had to have a tracker option on your signed Mortgage Loan Offer letter" and attached was a copy of my initial mortgage from August 2006 which was variable; and then staff fixed from January 2007.
My understanding when the Staff fixed rate letter issued was that I would have the option of moving to a tracker on roll-over - and was assured of this on making enquiries by phone (unfortunately hard to prove) - and by the roll-over date, I was simply caught by the fact that the tracker had been "withdrawn". . .

I am an ex-employee and have not directly contacted the FSO; but am keen to be included in any information any of the parties to this discussion can share on progress or action.
 

Ahv2c9

New Member
Messages
2
Hi TMH2017
I have just added to the thread with my summary. New to the discussions.
I had the two year staff fixed, and none redress
I have not gone to the FSO
I am en ex-employee.

I will email the boistafftracker gmail account separately as I'd like to stay in the loop on this.
 

TMH2017

Frequent Poster
Messages
59
All,
We are in the process of putting a group together on this issue and have had an initial call on this. The current group contains a number of current and ex-employees but we are keen to increase numbers as much as possible - our understanding is that there are up to 210 people within this cohort which the BOI are continuing to deny redress on. If you wish to be part of this group, please email the following address boistafftracker@gmail.com before the 10th of December.
We will have a further call shortly after this date to decide on the best way forward - please note for current employees that we will not disclose individual names at this stage and this will only be done with the agreement of each individual should we take that course of action in negotiations with BOI. Thanks
 

TMH2017

Frequent Poster
Messages
59
All, as an update we have made good progress in setting up a group to take this issue forward, have had a number of productive calls and have a number of different work streams underway in order to move this issue on. Our strength is in our numbers so if there are any other current/ex BOI staff in the same predicament (never on tracker, sold 2 yr staff fixed rate product on basis of roll to tracker and deemed not impacted by BOI) please email the following address to be included going forward : boistafftracker@gmail.com. Thanks
 

TMH2017

Frequent Poster
Messages
59
All, as an update we have made further significant progress on this case over the last month with meetings held with a no. of politicians including members of the Finance Committee, a formal submission made to the Central Bank and and engagement with the media - on that point we understand there will be material coverage on our case in the media early next week.
Our ability to generate momentum in this case has been solely down to our strength in numbers and sharing of information which has enabled us to build a very strong argument. As such, the more members we have in our group out of the c. 200 original staff, the better chance we have of achieving our ultimate goal which is receiving the correct redress. If you wish to join please email boistafftracker@gmail.com and I will add you to the distribution list and for regular call updates - please note if you are a current staff member we will not share any information with any third party without your express consent.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
39,133
Hi TMH

I did not know that there was such a group. When a thread gets to 6 pages, most of which is repetitive, the key stuff can get lost.

Do you want to start a new thread with a summary of the issues and what people can and should do?

Keep it as factual as possible in the first post -This is our argument - this is their response.

Or do their response in the second post.

Brendan
 

TMH2017

Frequent Poster
Messages
59
Thanks Brendan - See below recap of facts of our case - We have met with the Central Bank and representatives for BOI over recent weeks and our case was extensively discussed when BOI were at the Finance Committee a few weeks back - if there are any more people out there in the same situation please contact us at boistafftracker@gmail.com

Ø Prior to entering into the 2-year Fixed Rate mortgage contract (late 06/ early 07) Bank of Ireland staff were consistently and clearly told by Bank of Ireland and ICS mortgages staff that, “if you switched to the 2-year Fixed Rate mortgage, you would have the option to roll to a staff tracker at the end of the fixed rate period”. There was never any mention at this stage that a condition of this offer was that you had to be on a tracker product previously.

Ø It was common Bank of Ireland policy in 2006 that all fixed rate products had the option of rolling to a tracker. Bank of Ireland staff were not excluded from this policy. This was confirmed in press releases and mortgage rate sheets released in 2006 prior to the launch of the product which we all relied on.

Ø Furthermore, the Bank of Ireland internal system (Mortgage link) had all staff on 3.95% fixed rate moving to ECB + 0.75% which assured us that this was the nature of our mortgage rate (i.e. 2-year fixed with automatic roll to Staff tracker). This information was freely available to all staff and was only unilaterally changed by Bank of Ireland (by a Product Switch) on the internal system on 11th November 2008, less than 2 months prior to the end of the fixed rate period.

Ø From the beginning of the fixed rate period up until October 2008, all staff were constantly reassured by BOI branch and mortgage staff that this product would be rolling to the staff tracker + 0.75% hence no-one within this product switched out of the product given these assurances (which would be unusual given regular level of switching between different products).

Ø On the 09/10/08, all 2000 staff on the fixed rate product received a communication from BOI confirming that “Staff who are currently on Staff 2-year fixed – currently 3.95% - will roll to ECB +0.75% …. at the end of their 2-year fixed period. …. If you do not respond to this notification (which we did not) your account will automatically default to the Staff Tracker ECB+0.75%”. There was no clarification at that point that your previous rate history and presence of a tracker product would determine what rate you would ultimately roll to (10 years later).

Ø Following the notification on the 09/10/08, a large number of staff on the fixed rate product sought confirmation from the Bank that they would continue to honour the option to roll to Tracker. A number of our cohort were given confirmation by email and via phone calls that we all had the option of the roll to tracker and that we would continue to have this right on 10 October 2008 and up to expiry of the fixed rate product.

Ø In November 2008, less than 2 months before the end of a 24-month contract, Bank of Ireland changed the parameters of the contract removing the roll to tracker provision and amending the internal mortgage system while acknowledging within internal documentation that they had “in error” previously confirmed that they had confirmed to staff that they would roll to the staff tracker product.

Bank of Ireland have provided redress to c. 1800 of the 2000 staff (& Ex-staff) who originated on the 2-year Fixed rate product using the argument that this group were on a tracker product at some stage in the past (not necessarily right before the 2-year Fixed Rate) while our cohort was not and that "they can't treat staff differently than regular customers".

Bank of Ireland did not communicate to our group at any time prior to launching the 2 year fixed rate product that on the basis of our rate history that we would not be entitled to roll to a tracker product. If we were told on day 1 (or up to October 2008 - towards the end of the fixed rate period) that our product was fundamentally different to the other product we, as a group, would have had an opportunity to make an informed decision as to whether to break out of our fixed rate products and switch to a tracker product. As we were not told this and as we were constantly told from day 1 that the product would roll to a tracker, we trusted that our employer & banking provider would honour its commitment which we have found out to our immense cost was a false promise. Bank of Ireland have admitted in internal documentation in 2008 that they "incorrectly" advised staff that they would roll to a tracker and in its redress letters to staff admit that their communication regarding what would happen at the end of the fixed rate period was "confusing and / or misleading" yet they continue to refuse us redress despite all communication materials / documentation being the same for all cohorts within the 2-year Fixed Rate mortgage.
 

TMH2017

Frequent Poster
Messages
59
Hi , just an update to inform we as a group are still fighting this and are coming up with a range of options to try and get redress for our group. We have a large number of affected staff and ex-Staff but if there are any others out there and are keen to join our group please email to : boistafftracker@gmail.com. We are also on twitter @trackerstaff and on Facebook @ Bank of Ireland Staff Tracker.

Separately, as part of our investigations we became aware of a general notice released to all Mortgage staff in Feb 2006 which underpins our argument that we were all told that our fixed rate product would roll to a tracker product.

"It is important to note that all new products (discount tracker and fixed) will now roll to ECB + 1.25%. This eliminates the current scenario whereby all fixed rates roll to the standard variable rate"

This change in policy would have been a few months prior to the inception of our 2 year fixed rate product later in 2006.

Would be interested to see if others have used this document in discussions with FSO or have similar documents had success at other banks ?
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
39,133
Hi TMH
As your post and contact details might be lost in the middle of a long thread, I suggest that you also start a new thread and I will make it a key post.

Threads tend to go off topic very quickly so make it clear what the criteria are for your group e.g.
ex BoI staff
Had a tracker
Have been refused redress

Excludes
Non boi staff who have some other issue
etc

Brendan
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top