ubiquitous
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90210 said:
90210 said:
90210 said:
90210 said:
Bit of a contradiction there, eh?
Blood is Boiling - "Don't pay the revenue"
- Thread starter mo3art
- Start date
Bit of a contradiction there, eh?
Not really getting the point about the unfairness of our Tax system are you, sure it tas all fine and d dandy in Oirland. For your education probably check out Prime Time tonight to get a small idea about the imbalance of Tax and then probably start yourself off on something light , like any of the KPMG reviews on the Irish Tax system or anything by the Beano Stealth Tax Annual 2005.
90210 said:
Based on what you have posted so far (in particular the snippets quoted by Ubiquituous above) I take it that you fall into the "thieves" and not the "Joe Public" category? There is not much consistency in your arguments. You seem to rail against the unfairness of our tax system and the abuse of it by some people and yet use this as an excuse to engage in evasion yourself. You seemed to allude earlier to knowledge of tax evasion and how exposure of this would jeopardise your situation. Is this your own tax evasion that you were referring to?
I have to agree with this number in a way .....
Say I pay my taxes due on my rental to then think that the gov then has the power to use this to give to say ....hmmm ya pay the college fee of some rich kid ......my blood boils .........
where is the value for money there for society?????
while I could evade my tax and instead give this money to give a grid to some not as well off kid so it can have an equal opportunity as that rich kid.
Ya I see your point 90210 ........my blood is boiling !
Say I pay my taxes due on my rental to then think that the gov then has the power to use this to give to say ....hmmm ya pay the college fee of some rich kid ......my blood boils .........
where is the value for money there for society?????
while I could evade my tax and instead give this money to give a grid to some not as well off kid so it can have an equal opportunity as that rich kid.
Ya I see your point 90210 ........my blood is boiling !
What I mean is that our taxes are used so that there is free tuition for ALL
and I remember a good man by the name of Noel who did try to change this
so that the budget for education could be better spent in giving a better opportunity to
those NOT as well off ...
but NO the fact cats put the pressure on ......... oh ya ... and noels gone !
and now the gov are asking us to pay our taxes if only on moral grounds
hmmmmm
"Realistically how many people do you think evade tax for philanthropic reasons?"
not many but it does make one think about paying taxes on moral ground
and I remember a good man by the name of Noel who did try to change this
so that the budget for education could be better spent in giving a better opportunity to
those NOT as well off ...
but NO the fact cats put the pressure on ......... oh ya ... and noels gone !
and now the gov are asking us to pay our taxes if only on moral grounds
hmmmmm
"Realistically how many people do you think evade tax for philanthropic reasons?"
not many but it does make one think about paying taxes on moral ground
zardebt said:
As far as I remember most of the pressure came from the left and the unions, not the so called Fat Cats. Personally I think that those who can afford to pay 3rd level fees for their kids should pay them. I have had this debate here in the past and most people seem to disagree with me. For the record I would fall into the category that would have to pay the fees.
I abhor the waste and the wasters in the public sector but as a citizen of this country I don't have the right to decide what laws I keep and what ones I break. We are not talking about fundamental issues of conscience here; it's about resenting your hard earned money being wasted. I sympathise with you but you still don't have the right to steel from the rest of us.
If you are not paying taxes that the law requires then you are steeling so as a thief I wouldn't get too morally high minded about things if I was you.
"So why not campaign for the reintroduction of third level tuition fees if that's what you believe in? "
I feel so alone when you say that and so tired ...ah but most days askaboutmoney
cheer me up !
Forgive me for me ranting ---- its just one of thoses thing that is close to my heat !
Maybe one day I might ask people here should there be free tuition fees .......you know make our young people accountable for their education ..... lots of ideas ....
no I better not every time I start a discussion about education it ends up in the great financial debate forum, and I don't think it would get much attention there ...
"and now the gov are asking us to pay our taxes if only on moral grounds"
I think it was the minister for finance after the budget ......he said that the budget was a caring one and so on ........ .please surly someone else can back me up ....I think that's the new line the gov have for paying taxes .....
"How do you figure that tax evasion is morally defensible?"
Its not but I hope the gov don't think that by paying taxes it gives people a feel
good factor !!!!
I feel so alone when you say that and so tired ...ah but most days askaboutmoney
cheer me up !
Forgive me for me ranting ---- its just one of thoses thing that is close to my heat !
Maybe one day I might ask people here should there be free tuition fees .......you know make our young people accountable for their education ..... lots of ideas ....
no I better not every time I start a discussion about education it ends up in the great financial debate forum, and I don't think it would get much attention there ...
"and now the gov are asking us to pay our taxes if only on moral grounds"
I think it was the minister for finance after the budget ......he said that the budget was a caring one and so on ........ .please surly someone else can back me up ....I think that's the new line the gov have for paying taxes .....
"How do you figure that tax evasion is morally defensible?"
Its not but I hope the gov don't think that by paying taxes it gives people a feel
good factor !!!!
Z
z107
Guest
A good old fashioned thread about paying tax. 
I'm firmly in 90210's corner on this one. The only reason I pay taxes is because I'm forced to, with menaces. I'm sure this is the opinion of most sane, reasonable people.
I regard the revenue as a 'Legal Mafia'. They are completely ruthless and the cause of many a fledgling company's demise.
Money is taken from small companies and other easy targets to feather the nests of those in the bloated civil service. One day very soon, the government will bitterly regret this stance. I suspect sometime after the property crash, and when the foreign companies have left our shores.
I'm firmly in 90210's corner on this one. The only reason I pay taxes is because I'm forced to, with menaces. I'm sure this is the opinion of most sane, reasonable people.
I regard the revenue as a 'Legal Mafia'. They are completely ruthless and the cause of many a fledgling company's demise.
Money is taken from small companies and other easy targets to feather the nests of those in the bloated civil service. One day very soon, the government will bitterly regret this stance. I suspect sometime after the property crash, and when the foreign companies have left our shores.
The 'not my responsibility whether the trader pays his tax arguement' is of course pure & simple denial worthy of the see-no-evil monkey. It's like giving a loaded gun to a child but not accepting responsibility for the resulting accident.
The 'we pay enough taxes' arguement is equally bogus. It's the law. If you don't like the law, then get it changed. You can vote, or campaign, or lobby, or march on the Dail. But you're not entitled to rip off the Exchequer - because of course, you are actually ripping off your law abiding neighbours, your family, your friends.
The 'Revenue put us out of business' arguement is just foolish. If you can't run a business & pay your Revenue bills, then don't expect the state to subsidise your business.
The 'bloated public service' arguement is again equally bogus. If you don't like the public service, vote for Mad Mullah McDowell & the PD's - if enough people do so, he'll have the civil service small enough to fit into your spare bedroom. Unless & until this unlikely event takes place, this is a real measure of the democratic wish of the majority of citizens to support the existing parties and their existing regimes.
This kind of wholesale encouraging of tax evasion makes me sick - particularly when masked behind flimsy excuses around taxation or the civil service. If you want to change the system, stand up for yourself & take what ever action it takes to get it changed. If you don't, have the decency to admit that you are encouraging tax evasion to grab few more shekels into your greedy paws and you inherit the same ethical slime pool as Haughey/Burke/Flynn and their like.
The 'we pay enough taxes' arguement is equally bogus. It's the law. If you don't like the law, then get it changed. You can vote, or campaign, or lobby, or march on the Dail. But you're not entitled to rip off the Exchequer - because of course, you are actually ripping off your law abiding neighbours, your family, your friends.
The 'Revenue put us out of business' arguement is just foolish. If you can't run a business & pay your Revenue bills, then don't expect the state to subsidise your business.
The 'bloated public service' arguement is again equally bogus. If you don't like the public service, vote for Mad Mullah McDowell & the PD's - if enough people do so, he'll have the civil service small enough to fit into your spare bedroom. Unless & until this unlikely event takes place, this is a real measure of the democratic wish of the majority of citizens to support the existing parties and their existing regimes.
This kind of wholesale encouraging of tax evasion makes me sick - particularly when masked behind flimsy excuses around taxation or the civil service. If you want to change the system, stand up for yourself & take what ever action it takes to get it changed. If you don't, have the decency to admit that you are encouraging tax evasion to grab few more shekels into your greedy paws and you inherit the same ethical slime pool as Haughey/Burke/Flynn and their like.
Z
z107
Guest
You think the tax affairs of traders are your responsibility then? Why do we even need the revenue when we have such charitable vigilantees at our disposal?
Do you personally investigate the tax affairs of each company you do business with, just in case they are crooked?
Many small start-ups can just about sustain themselves (Wages, PRSI, PAYE, capital expenses).
However, it's a bit unrealistic to expect them to also sustain the bloated public sector as well! Consider that these easy targets are subsidising tax breaks given to foreign manfacturing companies, property section whatever, horses, poets, parking BIK, toll bridges etc, etc...
No, but as it quite clear from the 'kitchen VAT thread', some unscrupulous people are quite happy to proactively conspire with traders to evade tax by paying cash. To deny that this has anything to do with tax evasion is a flimsy attempt to salve their own consciences. To pretend otherwise is fooling yourself, but you're not fooling me.umop3p!sdn said:
As far as I know, there are no tax breaks given to foreigh manufacturing companies. The corporate tax rate is the same for all companies. It is not in the slightest bit unrealistic to expect ALL taxpayers (corporate & individual) to uphold the law. If you don't like the law, then get it changed. If your small start-up can't pay its bills, then shut it down.umop3p!sdn said:
Hi umop3p!sdn, I think you will find that a good many start up companies are supplying and servicing the foreign multinationals that you don't seem to like.
The Celtic Tiger boom was built on attracting foreign direct investment into this country. How else do you think this could be done than providing a favourable taxation climate? All the stuff we hear about out skilled workforce etc wouldn't have mattered if we didn't provide grants and tax write off's.
The bottom line is that unless you think you are more special than everyone else in this country then you have to pay your taxes. That's all there is to it.
The Celtic Tiger boom was built on attracting foreign direct investment into this country. How else do you think this could be done than providing a favourable taxation climate? All the stuff we hear about out skilled workforce etc wouldn't have mattered if we didn't provide grants and tax write off's.
The bottom line is that unless you think you are more special than everyone else in this country then you have to pay your taxes. That's all there is to it.
MissRibena
Registered User
- Messages
- 350
Warning: unsubstantiated rant follows:
Am I the only person who isn't entirely happy with all the revenue back-tracking into things like the life assurance policies? I am fed up with the whole thing of "shock horror people weren't declaring their taxes properly in the eighties" and the "ordinary PAYE worker" footed the bill for this etc. etc. Am I the only one who remembers that many an "ordinary PAYE worker" was doing plenty of non-PAYE work? That many people viewed car tax as an optional extra, more for Christmas than for life? Ditto re telly licences etc. etc. I am tired of hearing how it was all this tax evasion that was responsible for mass emmigration. Am I the only one who remembers the scores of businesses that went bust too? I find it a bit rich that the Revenue can calculate interest/penalites etc based on the amount of time passed when they should have been collecting it all along. Is it because it's more lucrative to wait for the taxes owing to snowball rather than act promptly? It would be one thing if all this money was collected and spent wisely but I really feel our government is squandering it and using it to make their accounts look far healthier than they are in reality. I have sneaking suspiscion that the money would be better spent by the people who earned it, even if they didn't pay tax.
What I'm saying is that I wish that we could draw a line in the sand; forget about the eighties when the country was a complete mess from top to bottom. I wish the Revenue would concentrate on what's going on now and get the hell on with it.
When I was thinking of keeping my house to rent out and buying another one, the main reason I didn't go ahead was the tax implications. And like mo3art, I was told by lots of acquaintances already in the investment game that I was "mad" not to go ahead and keep shtum from the Revenue. Most of these people were "ordinary PAYE workers" like me. Most of them are not financial whizzes and are investing/tax evading as a means of funding college fees/retirements down the line. Would it not be fairer to all concerned to nip this in the bud before it ends in disaster?
Rebecca
Am I the only person who isn't entirely happy with all the revenue back-tracking into things like the life assurance policies? I am fed up with the whole thing of "shock horror people weren't declaring their taxes properly in the eighties" and the "ordinary PAYE worker" footed the bill for this etc. etc. Am I the only one who remembers that many an "ordinary PAYE worker" was doing plenty of non-PAYE work? That many people viewed car tax as an optional extra, more for Christmas than for life? Ditto re telly licences etc. etc. I am tired of hearing how it was all this tax evasion that was responsible for mass emmigration. Am I the only one who remembers the scores of businesses that went bust too? I find it a bit rich that the Revenue can calculate interest/penalites etc based on the amount of time passed when they should have been collecting it all along. Is it because it's more lucrative to wait for the taxes owing to snowball rather than act promptly? It would be one thing if all this money was collected and spent wisely but I really feel our government is squandering it and using it to make their accounts look far healthier than they are in reality. I have sneaking suspiscion that the money would be better spent by the people who earned it, even if they didn't pay tax.
What I'm saying is that I wish that we could draw a line in the sand; forget about the eighties when the country was a complete mess from top to bottom. I wish the Revenue would concentrate on what's going on now and get the hell on with it.
When I was thinking of keeping my house to rent out and buying another one, the main reason I didn't go ahead was the tax implications. And like mo3art, I was told by lots of acquaintances already in the investment game that I was "mad" not to go ahead and keep shtum from the Revenue. Most of these people were "ordinary PAYE workers" like me. Most of them are not financial whizzes and are investing/tax evading as a means of funding college fees/retirements down the line. Would it not be fairer to all concerned to nip this in the bud before it ends in disaster?
Rebecca
Rebecca,
I totally agree with you - in ten years time the revenue will get round to investigating the property investors and people will get hit with huge tax bills. They certainly know the people who have more than one property - if I can digress into computer speak I'd imagine it would only take one SELECT statement on their database to generate a list of people who have more than one property and haven't filed a tax return. If they took that list and sent everyone a letter along the lines of 'we know you have a second property and we expect a tax return from you' within the first year of ownership then I suspect that would nip it in the bud.
Most people wouldn't continue to evade if they got a letter like that.
M
I totally agree with you - in ten years time the revenue will get round to investigating the property investors and people will get hit with huge tax bills. They certainly know the people who have more than one property - if I can digress into computer speak I'd imagine it would only take one SELECT statement on their database to generate a list of people who have more than one property and haven't filed a tax return. If they took that list and sent everyone a letter along the lines of 'we know you have a second property and we expect a tax return from you' within the first year of ownership then I suspect that would nip it in the bud.
Most people wouldn't continue to evade if they got a letter like that.
M
Here’s to nipping it in the bud.
There is great mixture of feeling on this and some very, very ordinary black and white theorists; I just knew this would sink in to the LOS Forum.
We all know it is the law to evade tax and I don’t think anyone feels that there is an excuse when we do it, that’s just generalising.
But the whole argument is about the unfairness of our tax system and its imbalance and the miss use of our precious funds not just by our government but also by successive governments.
At least now the Government have said that they will curb the abuse of the medical card that’s a positive thing.
But, I still know that Taxi drivers are completing very low self assessments each year and the Government has Union and Public Image concerns over that issue to the determent of the PAYE sector. But they get away with it. And what did the Tribunals ever do for me??
So, if I choose to rip off the Gov a little but not a lot, for me that’s acceptable, as I know I am pulling my weight unlike Miss Harney and others.
To propose an image of Law Abidance and Righteousness for all is a halcyon view of the State, but less common and tangible and no more than the corridors of our Dail.
There is great mixture of feeling on this and some very, very ordinary black and white theorists; I just knew this would sink in to the LOS Forum.
We all know it is the law to evade tax and I don’t think anyone feels that there is an excuse when we do it, that’s just generalising.
But the whole argument is about the unfairness of our tax system and its imbalance and the miss use of our precious funds not just by our government but also by successive governments.
At least now the Government have said that they will curb the abuse of the medical card that’s a positive thing.
But, I still know that Taxi drivers are completing very low self assessments each year and the Government has Union and Public Image concerns over that issue to the determent of the PAYE sector. But they get away with it. And what did the Tribunals ever do for me??
So, if I choose to rip off the Gov a little but not a lot, for me that’s acceptable, as I know I am pulling my weight unlike Miss Harney and others.
To propose an image of Law Abidance and Righteousness for all is a halcyon view of the State, but less common and tangible and no more than the corridors of our Dail.
MissRibena
Registered User
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- 350
And while I'm at it ...
I keep hearing George Lee et al saying how it's the Revenue Commissioners' job to collect revenue. Grand. But does that mean that they maximise their throughput at all costs because if so, then it makes perfect rational sense to not collect today but wait for penalities and interest to kick in and collect in five years time. Should they not be measured on how many tax evaders/avoiders there are rather than only how much dough they bring in?
Incidentally, how can the government go back 30 years on tax but at the same time try to avoid the nursing home reimbursement on the basis of 6 years statute barred limit? Maybe it is to the letter of the law but it is hardly just or fair. If I had a life assurance policy thingy (I wish!), I would be feeling like a right mug handing over shedloads of money to these hypocrites.
Rebecca
I keep hearing George Lee et al saying how it's the Revenue Commissioners' job to collect revenue. Grand. But does that mean that they maximise their throughput at all costs because if so, then it makes perfect rational sense to not collect today but wait for penalities and interest to kick in and collect in five years time. Should they not be measured on how many tax evaders/avoiders there are rather than only how much dough they bring in?
Incidentally, how can the government go back 30 years on tax but at the same time try to avoid the nursing home reimbursement on the basis of 6 years statute barred limit? Maybe it is to the letter of the law but it is hardly just or fair. If I had a life assurance policy thingy (I wish!), I would be feeling like a right mug handing over shedloads of money to these hypocrites.
Rebecca
Misplaced witchhunt
Having seen most of the Primetime report "Tax me if you can", one basic point is lost on many people. The government make the rules (the legislation), everyone else works with it and, largely, within it.
A tax incentive scheme is written up by the government/dept of finance, and then theres an outcry if its used. There are no "loopholes" in availing of a tax incentive scheme. It is not possible to "abuse" a tax incentive scheme - by "abuse" people are referring to their perceived overuse of the scheme. Fine, a legitmate point, but why blame those who operate within the law, with a finance bill every year and other legislative opportunities, the government and dept. of finance have ample opportunity to tweak the schemes as they are going along so as to prevent any overuse.
Why not cap the rental offset figure like they did for the all-income offset, why designate Dundrum for tax incentives?? Why give carte blanche for bloodstock nominations, why dont they cap it to allow the first 200k to be exempt (thereby keeping the "small man" who we hear so much about in the game), and then tax the balance.
Re the tax residence rules, why dont they say that if the greater part of a day, or even the greater part of the hours between 8am and 7pm are spent in Ireland then thats a day of Irish residence.
There are relatively easy solutions to perceived overuse of incentives or perceived unfair avoidance of tax, these solutions are within the gift of the government and the dept of finance with input from Revenue.
A witchhunt for users of "loopholes", "incentives abusers", "immoral accountants" is misplaced.
Having seen most of the Primetime report "Tax me if you can", one basic point is lost on many people. The government make the rules (the legislation), everyone else works with it and, largely, within it.
A tax incentive scheme is written up by the government/dept of finance, and then theres an outcry if its used. There are no "loopholes" in availing of a tax incentive scheme. It is not possible to "abuse" a tax incentive scheme - by "abuse" people are referring to their perceived overuse of the scheme. Fine, a legitmate point, but why blame those who operate within the law, with a finance bill every year and other legislative opportunities, the government and dept. of finance have ample opportunity to tweak the schemes as they are going along so as to prevent any overuse.
Why not cap the rental offset figure like they did for the all-income offset, why designate Dundrum for tax incentives?? Why give carte blanche for bloodstock nominations, why dont they cap it to allow the first 200k to be exempt (thereby keeping the "small man" who we hear so much about in the game), and then tax the balance.
Re the tax residence rules, why dont they say that if the greater part of a day, or even the greater part of the hours between 8am and 7pm are spent in Ireland then thats a day of Irish residence.
There are relatively easy solutions to perceived overuse of incentives or perceived unfair avoidance of tax, these solutions are within the gift of the government and the dept of finance with input from Revenue.
A witchhunt for users of "loopholes", "incentives abusers", "immoral accountants" is misplaced.