There are different stakeholders in crypto. I'm sure there are more recent arrivals who reacted superficially. There are also those who don't and didn't. Nobody will argue with the suggestion that bitcoin has yet to mature. However, there's more to it than someone notable tweeting. Much debated in these parts but I'm quite confident that there is something tangible at the heart of this...but we all make up our own minds on that."Like flies to wanton boys we are to the gods.......they kill us for their sport."
Elon tweets and bitcoin reacts plus or minus. Remember He tweeted
Wolfie, you've been an active participant in these discussions over the duration. I'm quite confident you know what's at play here - and it has little to do with a genuine interest in furthering the discussion. Take no notice.I don't know how you can not understand the point, with the exception that if you deliberately drop the words "largely" and "periods of" out of @tecate comment above then you can arrive at wholly different conclusion to point being made.
The fiat money printing experiment - who ends up paying (and who has been paying all along).
I believe in hard money. I would certainly support the gold standard not having been done away with in the first instance. However, given where we are right now, I'm happy with the bitcoin standard as a counterweight to rampant money printing. I don't think people's savings should be stolen by stealth to hide the screwups that governments make or pay for their pet projects (that may not be in the ordinary joe's interests). Gold can be counterfeited, it is largely centralised - meaning it's under central authority control - leading to the manipulation that Henry Ford identified 100 years ago (and every point in between). Bitcoin will have a similar battle albeit that it stands a better chance as it is much easier to self custody.Would you support a return to the gold standard? That is the impression that I get from Bitcoin aficionado's who constantly talk about fiat money and the weakness of it. You can therefore assume that they think the currency should be backed by something i.e. gold or Bitcoin.
Can't argue with that - there's never a bad time to book a profit.@tecate ,I neither have a philosophical or financial interest in bitcoin. It seemed to me that Wolfie felt he may be getting light-headed at bitcoin altitude. So it's purely a book-your-profit view. One can still be part of the story of bitcoins success even if you took early profit. It's the psychology of profit and loss not the philosophy of Blockchain. Please accept these peace offerings
I believe in hard money. I would certainly support the gold standard not having been done away with in the first instance. However, given where we are right now, I'm happy with the bitcoin standard as a counterweight to rampant money printing. I don't think people's savings should be stolen by stealth to hide the screwups that governments make or pay for their pet projects (that may not be in the ordinary joe's interests). Gold can be counterfeited, it is largely centralised - meaning it's under central authority control - leading to the manipulation that Henry Ford identified 100 years ago (and every point in between). Bitcoin will have a similar battle albeit that it stands a better chance as it is much easier to self custody.
Other than that, I'm not suggesting that sovereign currencies be done away with - just that regular people have a safe haven where their personal wealth doesn't wither away (or be confiscated, etc.).
If you have a short term time preference, then sure - you have to be cognisant of the volatility. However, over the longer term, it has performed as a store of value. It's entirely logical to me that it needs to go through these phases of price discovery. Think about it - you launch bitcoin tomorrow as a finite asset and it maintains that one price from day one or that price is discovered along the adoption curve?With the current prices of Bitcoin and the volatily of it, can't people's personal wealth fall away fairly dramatically if they buy it at the wrong time. It has fallen by 34% in three days in the past. It has also risen over 1600% in a number of months. How good a storer of wealth can it be if it has wild swings in value?
It's being adopted right now as a store of value/digital gold. It has the characteristics to take on that role. It is also being used as a settlement layer for larger transactions. Some want it to act as a transactional currency - and it's currently limited in that ability for micro-transactions due to scaling issues. These are issues that are being worked on by developers (by way of layer 2 solutions eg. lightning network). So rather than write it off on that basis, people should be aware that this use case may come back into play. Even if it never does, there's enough depth in that first use case for it to thrive.Also, is it a replacement of gold or currency? Was it not invented as a decentralised currency that people used to buy stuff with (mainly drugs and weapons on the dark web in the early days)? You'd be made to use it to buy anything these days. Apologies if all this has been discussed already, I haven't read the previous 15 pages of this thread.
That's a reasonable point. It's been discussed at length here over the last 3-4 years. My own view is that you've more or less stated that it's used as jewelry as a store of wealth. There are plenty of polished rocks that are used to make jewelry - but the interest is in gold because its valuable. It's valuable because its finite. Meanwhile bitcoin is more finite. Bitcoin also offers other advantages ...such as the ability to transmit it globally to whomever you want practically instantly. You can custody it yourself and cross borders with it - without the risk of confiscation.Then of course there's another observation in the Bitcoin,Gold, Fiat Currency menage-a-trois.
Fiat currency value to the average punter is largely ethereal , and has no real physical practical application value. Gold has its physical uses and can be conspicuously displayed as a signal of wealth.
Hard to imagine bitcoin necklaces or Pussy Galore helping BitcoinFinger to corner the market.......
Just sayin'.....
It seemed to me that Wolfie felt he may be getting light-headed at bitcoin altitude. So it's purely a book-your-profit view.
....and what about say, water? ( I have a position on this....even before Michael Burry's ( see The Big Short).- but the interest is in gold because its valuable. It's valuable because its finite. Meanwhile bitcoin is more finite.
I am not unsympathetic to the point but just to get the electricity dependence in perspective. Let’s say there was a crippling global carbon tax imposed. It would drive miners out of business but there would be an awful awful long way to go before the integrity of the blockchain was compromised. It is currently operating at 21 trillion times the capacity that Satoshi originally thought appropriate to secure the blockchain.I made the point above that bitcoin is closely correlated to the fortunes of the technology sector, it is afterall a child of the tech boom. That however is also it's fundamental weakness it cannot exist independent of technology. People that hold gold hold it not just because it is valuable but also because it is indestructible and exists independent of man and technology. If the power grid was to collapse in an armagedon scenario where would bitcoin be? As was pointed out above bitcoin requires enormous amounts of energy just to create it is completely dependent on modern industrial and technical predominance
So you're presenting a scenario where the bitcoin network as a whole goes down. The network is distributed over 195 countries. It's been a bad day at the office for planet earth then if ALL parts of the planet have been struck down such that there is no power whatsoever. Imagine yourself under those conditions. You're talking about complete societal breakdown. You don't need money to pay for anything - you'll need might. I'll try to pay for something with gold and you won't have any idea if its real or fake. Secondly, are we going to spend all day melting it down to the exact value that equals the loaf of bread I'm trying to buy off you (given that gold fails in terms of divisibility)? But if we have no power worldwide, then the rule of law doesn't exist - we just have chaos and the 'currency' is the baseball bat or whatever other weapon is lying around.I made the point above that bitcoin is closely correlated to the fortunes of the technology sector, it is afterall a child of the tech boom. That however is also it's fundamental weakness it cannot exist independent of technology. People that hold gold hold it not just because it is valuable but also because it is indestructible and exists independent of man and technology. If the power grid was to collapse in an armagedon scenario where would bitcoin be? As was pointed out above bitcoin requires enormous amounts of energy just to create it is completely dependent on modern industrial and technical predominance
I'm not sure what your point is specifically? However, water is a commodity. I believe that there's now a water futures market. If you're comparing water and bitcoin in terms of scarcity, then I would say that bitcoin is more perfectly finite. Water can be made - additional bitcoin can't. Lets take any commodity that becomes scarce. The price goes up - then new tech becomes feasible in attempting to find more of that resource. In the case of water desalination, such plants exist but they're few and far between because they're not economically feasible. In the scenario you describe, they would become feasible - and now you will have more sources/supply of that resource. Take gold as the example in that instance. It's price goes up and now other methods of mining it become economically viable. This scenario played out with oil in recent years. Remember a few years ago all the talk about peak oil? The price went up - then new tech came along (fracking)..and now nobody talks much about us running out of that resource.....and what about say, water? ( I have a position on this....even before Michael Burry's ( see The Big Short).
It's Finite, absolutely vital , even tulips need it....but we put very little value on it...It's not sexy but my investment has ticked up nearly 200% in about 10 years with volatility between, let's say, "normal" investment parameters. Eventually, you may be offering your Bitcoin for my water.......and I may not sell it.
FedWire - the funds settlement system operated by US Federal Reserve Banks - went offline. In it's 12 years of existence, the bitcoin network has never been offline.
I wonder what exactly this means. Several aspects come to mind. A chain of blocks of data, time stamped and linked by their hashes. Private/public keys. Compression of multiple transactions into Merkle trees. All these things might have a usage in conventional banking. But Proof of Work? Please don't tell me banks are engaging in zillions of hash puzzles per second. As Yellen said, the most inefficient mechanism one could imagine.However underlying blockchain technology is being used for regular cash movements between banks
Fedwire is a cent or two and seconds to confirm
Or if you're going to make the comparison then at least be accurate about it. Fedwire was down for a short while but all activity was transacted before end of day.
Fedwire is for transfers between financial institutions. Therefore, of course they're worlds apart in terms of overall $ value transferred. However, on volume/transactions, that gap isn't as large as you'd imagine. My understanding is that if transaction batching is taken into account, bitcoin and Fedwire do about the same number of transactions. Bitcoin settles around $10billion/day whereas Fedwire settles $3.3T/day. Yet we've identified that transaction volume is similar - thus scaling up to act as a base settlement layer isn't an issue.The BTC network is certainly more distributed. But it also handles a tiny fraction of the volume and value of something like Fedwire.
Well, on processing times, we're comparing a centralised database with a decentralised blockchain so of course transaction costs and times can be lower - but the trade offs have to be recognised. Anyone on the planet can access that bitcoin settlement base layer. You need a banking license as a prerequisite and permission beyond that to access Fedwire directly.It also had much longer processing time and significantly higher transaction charges than Fed - or similar.
See above. It currently executes similar transaction volume to Fedwire. If we're talking about other layers stacked on top of Fedwire (visa, ach, atm networks, etc), then bitcoin can run with that too (via it's developing layer 2 - lightning network).That's not to invalidate BTC. It's just that it would struggle to replace existing networks.
Lets compare like with like. Fedwire is centralised and so it costs a couple of cents. However, the average Fedwire transaction is $2 million so the btc fee you refer to is inconsequential when moving large amounts. Wire transfers that businesses and individuals use cost $25 and upwards.I don't think most people / corporates would accept a $20 charge for every transaction and a wait of up to days to complete. Fedwire is a cent or two and seconds to confirm
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