Bitcoin has subjective value - intrinsic value is irrelevant

Duke of Marmalade said:
Until there are people whose earnings are in bitcoin it will never be a natural retail currency.
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So you are open to the notion that it could be a 'natural retail currency'.
This is distinct from you thinking it will ever be.
On par perhaps with Warwickshire becoming All-Ireland hurling champions, perhaps?
 
Firefly said:
Coupled with Bitcoin’s popularity among ransomware extortionists and all manner of other cybercriminals, we must now face a chilling realization:
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Here are two sample articles from arguably a reputable financial news site that when you examine the contents of the articles, you may feel as I do that they are somewhat exaggerated, inconsistent, disjointed, contradictory and with just a touch of a self-interested agenda.
All in all, its hard to this stuff about bitcoin criminality too seriously when so much of it is clearly bogus.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ies-pain-for-some-as-ransom-demands-skyrocket

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...itcoin-wallets-have-been-emptied-analysts-say
 
newtothis said:
Just an additional thought: is it possible to place Bitcoin on deposit and earn interest? (This is a genuine question: I don't know the answer). If it is, then it would have some intrinsic value. However, I suspect it isn't, if only because of the volatility in its price.
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Oh there are quite a few places, if you count margin funding, though I wouldn't get excited about that.
Little to none in terms of insurance.
 
TheBigShort said:
That's because value is subjective.
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Absolutely not.

Value is real and objective. Price is the result of subjective assessments of value.

A meal has the value that it will feed me for the day. That may be priced at €1, €10, or €50.

A euro represents a claim on the output of the Euro zone economies. That may be priced at the cost of a meal, one tenth of a meal or one fiftieth of a meal. It may be diluted by QE, it may be devalued by inflation or recession, it may increase in value due to a booming economy. In each case it remains a claim on the output of the Euro zone. The value of a Euro is real and objective, the price of a Euro which involves quantifying that value may be subjective.
 
That is referring to the Labour Theory of Value. But that is rubbish because just because people commit esources to produce something does not mean anybody else thinks it has any value
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Why are you holding onto something which is worth nothing, which you could sell for $16,000?
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Yet again, my mind is well and truly boggled.

In my world, if I can sell something for $16,000 then that’s what it’s worth.

I might hold the opinion that it is a tad overvalued (to the tune of $16,000, even), but that’s just my opinion, not an objective fact, which is what you keep seem to be presenting it as.

I'll ask again: what do you mean when you use the terms "value" and "worth"?
 
Brendan Burgess said:
I think it would be unfair to take this thread off topic by answering it yet again. Discussed in detail in this thread.

Bitcoin has subjective value - intrinsic value is irrelevant
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But that's the point: you didn't answer the question (other than quote Lews Carroll), and you go on to make the same claims in this thread too. I note you didn't answer this time either (what's that: 4 or 5 times now?). So, at the risk of boring everyone, I'll ask again: what do you mean when you say "value" or "worth"?
 
newtothis said:
But that's the point: you didn't answer the question (other than quote Lews Carroll), and you go on to make the same claims in this thread too. I note you didn't answer this time either (what's that: 4 or 5 times now?). So, at the risk of boring everyone, I'll ask again: what do you mean when you say "value" or "worth"?
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Oh give it a rest. I think its perfectly clear that Brendans think bitcoin is worthless, because it has no asset backing. You don't have to agree with that view or even think its relevant, but it has been explained ad nauseam.
 
cremeegg said:
Oh give it a rest. I think its perfectly clear that Brendans think bitcoin is worthless, because it has no asset backing. You don't have to agree with that view or even think its relevant, but it has been explained ad nauseam.
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It is currently backed by the equivalent of $150bn.
 
Bitcoin has a price of $9,000 today
Bitcoin is worth nothing.
Bitcoin has no value.

There is a huge difference between price and value. And price and worth.

I see no difference between value and worth but if you want to define them to create a difference that it fine.

The key point is that misguided people are paying $9,000 for something whose price will eventually be zero. If you want to play with words and say that it is worth $9,000 because someone else will pay $9,000, you are only fooling yourself.

newtothis said:
First time I've heard this as the explanation: just out of interest, what assets back other currencies?
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That is not my explanation at all.

As I have pointed out repeatedly, those who claim that Bitcoin has a value greater than 0 must show why it has that financial value and how it is estimated. No one has done that anywhere.

It's not up to atheists to prove that Gods do not exist. Those who believe in Gods must prove that they exist.
If someone thinks that a bag of air has value, then they must show how that value is calculated.


Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
The key point is that misguided people are paying $9,000 for something whose price will eventually be zero. If you want to play with words and say that it is worth $9,000 because someone else will pay $9,000, you are only fooling yourself.
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Firstly, the price may eventually be zero, not will eventually be zero. Interesting you brought up religion, a defining characteristic of which is faith that something is true, regardless of any evidence..

It's not playing with words to say that it is worth $9,000 because someone else will pay $9,000, it's what the word actually means: I won't bore you with quoting the dictionary yet again.

When the proof is there for all to see what value is placed on something, I rather think it's up to you to prove it's worth something else. Either that, or clarify what you mean by the terms value and worth, though you seem determined not to.

Brendan Burgess said:
those who claim that Bitcoin has a value greater than 0 must show why it has that financial value and how it is estimated
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As I said before, no estimation needed: the value is there for all to see in the market price, same as anything else that's traded.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
those who claim that Bitcoin has a value greater than 0 must show why it has that financial value and how it is estimated. No one has done that anywhere.
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Bitcoin has a greater financial value than 0 because its intrinsic value is its ability to hold and transfer a persons own money outside of the centrally planned monetary system.
The price set on that value is determined between buyers and sellers in a market, through demand and supply - exactly like any other price set on any other product or service. Currently that price is around $9,000 per full unit of bitcoin. Whether that is good or poor value is for each to decide.
Personally, I dont know if it represents good or poor value, as I cannot predict for certain what the future holds. However, I estimate that bitcoin will be around for quite sometime yet (effectively until some other crypto overtakes it) and that it holds potential to go to a price a lot higher, primarily, but not exclusively, because of the level of fraud and corruption inherent in the monetary system.
To what extent its price will rise is very hard to determine, particularly with its known volatility.
But you have asked for a financial estimation, now you have one, albeit inconclusive, but probably not much different to financial estimations for gold and silver.
 
In fairness, I take Brendan's point on price vs. worth/value. If only I had the same level of warnings during the celtic tiger! Current price doesn't necessarily represent true value/worth.

That said, I'm still keeping an open mind as to where that will all end up ...as it could go either way. i.e. I certainly don't think it will be worth 'nothing' - it should be worth a few euro/dollars, etc at the very least. However, I don't discount the fact that it could hit close to rock bottom.

If Tether wasn't an issue and price hit sub-5k, I'd certainly take a look at the circumstances at the time. Of course, that would be totally (and highly) speculative if I were to opt in. All theoretical as I can't see Tether being dealt with anytime soon unfortunately (which is a shame - as it's simply wrong and a blight on the whole crypto space).
 
Brendan Burgess said:
It's not up to atheists to prove that Gods do not exist. Those who believe in Gods must prove that they exist.
If someone thinks that a bag of air has value, then they must show how that value is calculated.
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You keep bringing up religion as a basis upon which to show that bitcoin has no value.
This despite, it having been pointed out to you, that religion does have value. Believing in the invisible man in sky who watches over you all day everyday holds value. It holds a spiritual value for billions of people who are prepared to sustain that spiritual value through financial contributions. Even though God is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-conquering, he just cant handle his finances.

So religion, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, etc...etc...holds huge value.

Similarily, the euro holds value, not because it is backed by any assets, but because it is administered by an over-arching authority called the ECB which has been ceeded legal authority by 18 nation states to manage our currency. At any given time, faith in that currency could collapse. Faith in the ability of debtors to pay what they owe could be lost, the euro could collapse to zero value and we move on to using something else as money.
 
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