Bishop Of Kerry speaks out

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Church and religion is about more than just belief for a lot of Irish people...it's also about community and a sense of belonging.
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Unfortuantely it has also been about division and exclusion for many as history teaches us. Just look at Joe and his challenging of atheists' belief in Santy for example! :lol
 
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"so where did you think the origin of Santy with a beard and toys came"

I thought it was from a Coca Cola advert, hence the red & white outfit.
 
I've yet to meet a Catholic who when quetioned on what they "Really" believed didn't turn out to be either a protestant or a superstitious agnostic.

Getting back to the Bishops statement. I can't understand why lapsed catholics would want to baptise their child into the Catholic Church.

Catholicism is the only religion they've tried and they feel it didn't do it for them, so why would that be the one that they'd put their child into. If you want to bring your child up in a religion why not look around and find one you like? And if there's none that you are willing to practice, why is it so important to get your child into one?

Of course if it's purely playing the system, i.e. to get into a school, I could understand that, but I'd prefer if people changed that culture rather than going along with the charade. I'd have thought religious people would be happier to not have their church used as a means of getting into a certain school.

Are we really ok with a country in which the Catholics and Protestants get first pick of the schools and those of other religions and none must take the scraps of whats left?
Is that Multi-Culturalism Irish Style? If it is it sucks. We should ALL be very ashamed.

-Rd
 
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Actually Santy originated from last year's hurling Championship from Cyril Farrell's constantly referring to Setanta O Halpín as "Santy".
"Santy really delivered the goods today Ger".
 
There ain't no sanity clause!

All this talk of Santy reminds me of the Marx Brothers' "A Night at the Opera".

"WHAT'S THIS?" asks Chico.
"It's in every contract. That's what they call the sanity clause." replies Groucho.
Chico laughs and says back: "You can't fool me. There ain't no sanity clause!"
 
"I've yet to meet a Catholic who when quetioned on what they "Really" believed didn't turn out to be either a protestant or a superstitious agnostic"

You should talk to my dad so.
 
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No offence to any Christians out there but don't look for explanations of or justifications for much of Christian theology and practice in the Bible or the first hand accounts (written at least 70 years after Christ's death and then translated through several ancient languages don't forget) of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ or you'll be left wondering.
 
Joe, you really don't want to go down the road of origins. The whole celebration of Christmas on December 25th was a cynical attempt to overshadow the Pagan festivities. So by rights Christians shouldn't be celebrating Christmas in December at all. April 15th I think is the correct date.

I didn't refer to the origins of Santa Claus, I referred to his current meaning. Which is commercial pure and simple. When was the last time you prayed to Saint Nicholas?

The current image of Santa Claus was popularised by Coca Cola, but not invented by them, the Red clothes, beard and so on were there before Coke got their hands on it. The Reindeer were invented by Clement Clarke Moore and have no Christian or other singnificance. Rudolph was invented for an Ad I think.

Next thing you'll be telling me the Christmas crib and the shamrock on St. Paddy's Day have no Christian origins either. LOL!
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Nope, but I also wont be wearing any shamrock, or displaying a crib.

Easter Eggs of course are a Pre-Christian tradition, so I presume you won't be having any. I will, because I'm not as hung up on origins as you are.

Did This post will be deleted if not edited immediately ever make holy water?
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Wasn't a big fan of water. Preferred to turn it into wine.
He'd be slung out faster than a smoker if he tried it in a pub today.

-Rd
 
From some Census data, published today

Persons without a religion more than doubled
The number of persons who indicated that they had no religion increased from 66,000 in 1991 to 138,000 in 2002. Almost half of those without a religion were aged between 20 and 39 years and of these 60 per cent were males.


Marriage breakdown highest for those with no stated religion

About one in five ever-married (excluding widowed) persons aged 15 years and over with no stated religion was either separated or divorced according to the results of the 2002 census. The corresponding rates for Muslims and Roman Catholics were 5 per cent and 8 per cent, respectively – below the national average rate of 8.4 per cent.
 
Joe, you really don't want to go down the road of origins.
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Yeah? Why not? Strangely enough I thought this was a discussion forum, where we could go down the road of whatever subject we wanted. What are you going to do? use your moderator super powers to prevent me discussing the origins of anything?

I didn't refer to the origins of Santa Claus, I referred to his current meaning.
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Actually it was the imagery of Saint Nicholas you were talking about unless
You think a fat guy with a white beard a red costume flying reindeer, and a bag full of toys is imagery of Saint Nicholas
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means something completely different to the obvious?
Of which I was saying at that at least some of this imagery orginates from St. Nicholas.
 
Re: From some Census data, published today

The number of persons who indicated that they had no religion increased from 66,000 in 1991 to 138,000 in 2002
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They might have put down "No religion" but I bet at least some of those 138,000 got married/will get married in a church.
 

I'm not sure what the point is but I have two comments (a) correlation does not necessarily imply causality and (b) so what?

As for Santy this link might be of interest to Joe and daltonr. Perhaps he deserves a topic of his own assuming that the Bishop of Kerry didn't allude to him?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus
 
Did This post will be deleted if not edited immediately ever make holy water?
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I'm sure He took a whiz, or several, each day....does that count?

Slim :lol
 
division and exclusion

Of course Church and religion has involved a lot of division and exclusion throughout history. That doesn't necessarily mean it is to be condemned. For example, sport is another major source of division, exclusion (an sometimes hate), not least in our own country. It also does a lot of good, in bringing people together and fostering a sense of community and belonging among its participants. I would suggest that organised religion, despite its many faults, does something similar.

It is therefore no accident that the decline in Irish religious practice in the past decade has been accompanied by a rise in individualism and a loss of community spirit at all levels of society.
 
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"I've yet to meet a Catholic who when quetioned on what they "Really" believed didn't turn out to be either a protestant or a superstitious agnostic"

I guess I am one of them. Grew up a Catholic but have been attending Anglican/COI services for the past 8 years. However I still attend R. Catholic mass on the odd weekend when I visit my parents. However I get so much more out of the COI service...the sermon, the music, the whole approach gives one time for more reflection. Also my husband is a presbyterian and is welcome to take communion there.
Until I met my husband I never really though much about my religion....going to mass was something I just did out of habit. I have to say that now I see the bread and wine as symbols and I probably should n't take communion at the RC mass when I attend. But I believe these differences between catholics and protestants are all man made rules so I practice my faith whatever way feels right for me.

I have never officially declared that I am COI but when we have kids I guess we'll have to make more of an official decision.

Janeom
 
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"But I believe these differences between catholics and protestants are all man made rules so I practice my faith whatever way feels right for me."

I think you hit the nail on the head Janeom.
 
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Of course Church and religion has involved a lot of division and exclusion throughout history. That doesn't necessarily mean it is to be condemned.
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Not sure what prompted that comment but nobody has condemned religion (either generally or any specific version) in the course of this discussion as far as I'm aware.
 
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Joe wrote:

"They might have put down "No religion" but I bet at least some of those 138,000 got married/will get married in a church. "

I think the opposite is also true.

In my case, I would tick RC as my religion in a survey, hospital form or census, although I havent attend Mass (appart from Funerals/weddings etc) for over a decade, and I am not religious (heck I dont even believe in God). But I most definitely wouldnt get married in a Church or by a Priest.
 
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What are you going to do? use your moderator super powers to prevent me discussing the origins of anything?
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I was making the suggestion for your benefit not mine. I only use my moderator super powers to save kids and fight super villians.

Let's not continue the discussion of Santa Claus. I'm a little concerned that you seem to think that the biggest loss to an Atheist is that they don't get to tell their kids about Santa Claus. You might want to rethink what you get out of religion if this is what preoccupies you about Ahteism.

In the mean time, rest assured that Atheists can celebrate any ceremony or festivify they like, because there's no god to strike them down. If they want to give their kids gifts during Hanukah they can do it, it's their kids after all.

As much as you might like the idea of Atheists living dour boring lives with no fun to be had, it isn't like that. But thanks for your concern.

BTW A tip for all you Atheists. Hanukah gift wrapping paper is much cheaper than Christmas wrapping paper, because Hanukah ends before the christmas wrapping seasing gets into full swing. So the paper is usually being sold off.

Roll on multi-cultural Ireland.

Also, if you can convince your kids that Santa visits Atheists in January, his shopping bill can be greatly reduced.

-Rd
 
My point...

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My point was not a rebuttal of any previous post but simply something that I think was missed in the debate so far. Is it too much to expect that viewpoints can be expressed and accepted on their own merits? Surely this is not some sort of college debating society where every contribution has to be adversarial for the sake of it??!!!
 
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