Bishop Of Kerry speaks out

Re

I think Joe Nonety has hit on the only use I can see for clinging to some sort of Christian religion. I'm a very lapsed Catholic (though we had the kids baptised so that they could go to the local school) and I really think that there is no life after death. BUT, whenever my kids ask me (as kids do) 'what happens if you/I/granny/whoever dies?', you have to give an answer along the lines of 'we all go to heaven and we'll be together again someday'. It's hugely comforting to a child even if it a bare-faced lie. What would the atheists who've posted here tell their children?

And to whoever expressed surprise that a lot of regular posters are atheists, I think that's just a reflection of society now. I don't think any of my friends or similar age relatives still go along with the full Catholic thing. If the schools weren't controlled by the religious, there'd be a lot fewer 'Catholics' left.

Re: Re

Alex

I don't have kids so I'm not 100% sure what I would tell them. But I don't think of it much differently. When you die, you return to the soil and become a different part of the world (basically fertilizer), which allows something else to come from the earth again. The circle of life does exist, just not with angels and fluffy clouds and pearly gates. You see to me, most religions' explanations of life after death are actually saying just that; "ashes to ashes", re-incarnation etc. etc. I don't believe you have to dress it up so much for kids. I think that kids pick up on the fear of adults hold in relation to their own mortality. To me, it's not that bad.

Rebecca

That's it...

Hi Alex,

________________________________________________
BUT, whenever my kids ask me (as kids do) 'what happens if you/I/granny/whoever dies?', you have to give an answer along the lines of 'we all go to heaven and we'll be together again someday'. It's hugely comforting to a child even if it a bare-faced lie. What would the atheists who've posted here tell their children?
________________________________________________

A tough question....not that I have kids, but if I did I would try and answer honestly and say that the person is gone, but if you keep remembering them, they'll never completely go away, which I have to say gives me some comfort whenever I think of somebody I've lost.

As for the whole Heaven and God issue, well I think I'm a little bit of an agnostic but veering towards atheism.

Personnally, I have enough trouble trying to deal with the fact that I'm living here now ;-) After all I'm a collection of about a trillion cells and utlimately I'm one of the products of 15 billion years of cosmic evolution starting off with the simple hydrogen atom!

Wow!!

If you wanted to know more on this slant - check out the brilliant series "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan.

Cheers,

OpusnBill

Re: Re

I've never taken much of an interest in religion...which is probably why I didn't know I was a theist
I've always known what I've believed though...or at least I've known it for a long time. Institutionalised religion for me has always been about trying to make sense of who we are and what God is, but somehow always manages to get very, very lost along the way. I think it's unfair to say "The circle of life does exist, just not with angels and fluffy clouds and pearly gates" because no believer really believes that Heavan is up in the clouds and Saint Peter is standing there waiting to test you :\ That's something that Christians tell their children so that they can form some sort of understanding of the afterlife. Anyone who has children or young children in their family knows that during times of loss it's difficult for them to comprehend death. If you believe in an afterlife (as I do) then you can't tell children that the afterlife is something which you can't fathom. That means nothing to a child!

transubstantiation

on Holy Thursday for believers, the last supper occured where bread and wine were shared by This post will be deleted if not edited immediately to his disciples. There was no actual changing into his blood and body, more the two were symbols of what the two would mean. As in when This post will be deleted if not edited immediately said "Do this in memory of me".

of course its not blood, but christian faith follows the guidelines of the last supper by using bread and wine and re-enacting what effectively was the first mass.

of course an atheist isn't going to believe in that, but christians would and do, not just catholics.

Re: Re

Its the kids of Atheists I feel sorry for as obviously Santy wouldn't exist in an Atheist's house.

Click to expand...

Why not? Christmas is primarily a Commercial holiday these days. If I chose to treat it entirely as such then that's my perogative. If you chose to have a religious dimension to it fair play to you.

If on the other hand you believe in a creator who doesn't intervene then it's not so difficult to understand I think.

Click to expand...

So why do organised religions devote so much effort to praying for his/her/their intervention?

What would the atheists who've posted here tell their children?

Click to expand...

That nobody knows what happens when you die. Then I'd list the half dozen or so theories, including the one where you get to be Casper, and I'd tell them to take their pick.

If they insisted on knowing what I thought, and it was a young kid I might use the Santa Clause school of parenting and paint a pretty picture until they were old enough to know what I really thought. Young kids should not have to think about their Mortality.

OK, this is rapidly becoming a thread on DOES GOD EXIST, so I'll bow out here, because we can't answer that and I have no inclination to get into a MY BELIEF IS BETTER THAN YOURS kind of debate.

Fair play to the Bishop, but I don't see anything changing.

-Rd

Re: Re

On the transubstation thing ...

Was it not one of the reasons for the Reformation? Protestants believe the wine and bread are symbolic and Catholics believe they are actually the body and blood of Christ.

Rebecca

Re: Re

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If on the other hand you believe in a creator who doesn't intervene then it's not so difficult to understand I think.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So why do organised religions devote so much effort to praying for his/her/their intervention?

Hi Rd...that's a good question. I don't know. Like I said, most catholics I know believe in the kind of God I described above. It's always been an argument against God (why do bad things happen etc...) but it doesn't hold a lot of water with me. But who knows what people pray for? I think prayer is probably a very personal thing. I don't pray...never have. If I did though I'd be asking for a big fat ferrari

.

QUOTE:"Was it not one of the reasons for the Reformation?"

One reason was because bishops were selling documents to rich people which "guaranteed" them a seat in heaven.

Re: .

Why not? Christmas is primarily a Commercial holiday these days. If I chose to treat it entirely as such then that's my perogative. If you chose to have a religious dimension to it fair play to you.

Click to expand...

I know Christmas is based on Christianinty, Paganism and Commercialism, but I was specifically talking about "Santy" there. Surely there would be no mention or imagery of Saint Nicholas in an atheists house? And not having the excitement and build up of Santy in someone's childhood is something I feel a child is really missing out on.

Re: .

of course its not blood, but christian faith follows the guidelines of the last supper by using bread and wine and re-enacting what effectively was the first mass.

of course an atheist isn't going to believe in that, but christians would and do, not just catholics.

Click to expand...

Wrong. Catholics believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine literally into the body and blood of Christ. Protestants see it as simply symbolic. Each views the other's Sacrament of the Eucharist as a sham. These days they try, to some extent, to gloss over fundamental differences on theology and practice using ecumenism but every so often the schisms are laid bare:

[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]

On another tangent... I really can't understand ecumenism to be honest. Different religions have either fundamentally or subtly different beliefs and practices but ultimately believe that they are right so trying to make it look like they're all part of one big happy religious family smacks of hypocricy to me. I would have more respect for them if they stood up for what they believed in and left it at that even if I didn't necessarily see eye to eye with them on the specific matter in hand. This case of the Bishop of Kerry or even the McAleese communion row above would be an example of them having the courage of their convictions/beliefs to call a spade a spade from their point of view in my opinion.

BUT, whenever my kids ask me (as kids do) 'what happens if you/I/granny/whoever dies?', you have to give an answer along the lines of 'we all go to heaven and we'll be together again someday'. It's hugely comforting to a child even if it a bare-faced lie. What would the atheists who've posted here tell their children?

Click to expand...

I personally would focus on the fact that the dead person lives on in our memory and also insofar as how their influence and teaching informs our own thoughts and actions, particularly in relation to good traits and habits etc. I feel that this is a more actively positive view than telling them that the loved one has magically gone "up to heaven" or whatever.

And to whoever expressed surprise that a lot of regular posters are atheists, I think that's just a reflection of society now. I don't think any of my friends or similar age relatives still go along with the full Catholic thing. If the schools weren't controlled by the religious, there'd be a lot fewer 'Catholics' left.

Click to expand...

The use of the quotes above is pertinent. I have a lot of respect for anybody who studies and thinks about religion and spirituality and either gets to the root of their faith or else decides that they have none. Those who do religion by default, who generally don't even understand the basic tenets of the faith that they purport to follow but who still manage to preach at others I have no time for. If incidents like this (the Bishop of Kerry's comments) stimulate some frank and open debate and encourage people to examine and understand their own beliefs then I believe that is a positive thing. However I reckon that a more common reaction, from Catholics and non Catholics alike, might be "who the hell does he think he is to have the cheek to tell US what we can and can't do...". :\

Re: .

Surely there would be no mention or imagery of Saint Nicholas in an atheists house?

Click to expand...

You think a fat guy with a white beard a red costume flying reindeer, and a bag full of toys is imagery of Saint Nicholas?

Since you're not an atheist and don't seem to understand what being an atheist means (see your earlier comments on excumunication), let me put your mind at rest.

Atheists, give presents, receive presents, and celebrate all aspects of Christmas except the religious aspects. In that respect they are not unlike many Catholics.

Some atheists also eat Easter Eggs. Not for any religious significance, but because they like chocolate. In that respect they are not unlike many Catholics.

And as Bill Hicks pointed out:

"I've read the bible, I can't find any mention of Chocolate Eggs or Bunny Rabbits anywhere".

Joe, I'm not trying to convince you that Atheism is the way to go, but if you have any other misconceptions I'd be happy to set you straight.

-Rd

.

QUOTE:"Wrong. Catholics believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine literally into the body and blood of Christ. Protestants see it as simply symbolic."

For what it's worth I remember our Catholic R.E. teachers' opinion on this. He said the bread and wine was actually transformed into the body and blood of Christ. Though if you brought it to a lab and tested it it would still be bread & wine...

Hope I've helped clear that matter up...!

If as a Catholic you don't believe in transubstantiation and in the immaculate conception, then can you really be a Catholic?

I suspect many Catholics should really be protestants if they are not atheists.

I personally don't believe in either of the above.

Marion :hat

"If as a Catholic you don't believe in transubstantiation and in the immaculate conception, then can you really be a Catholic?"

Doesn't the catholic church preach against the use of condoms? So if you use them can you not call yourself a catholic?

I have to say there's a lot of philosophising going on here about Catholicism and very little common sense. Ireland is a predominantly Catholic country...so people were born into the faith. If they choose to go to mass and believe in This post will be deleted if not edited immediately then that's fine in my book. It doesn't mean they should switch religions because they don't believe that they're actually chewing on the body parts of our lord :\

But piggy you are missing the point. These are 2 of the major differences between the Catholic and Protestant religions.

Nobody is suggesting that people should change their religion.

Marion :hat

I have to say there's a lot of philosophising going on here about Catholicism and very little common sense. Ireland is a predominantly Catholic country...so people were born into the faith. If they choose to go to mass and believe in This post will be deleted if not edited immediately then that's fine in my book. It doesn't mean they should switch religions because they don't believe that they're actually chewing on the body parts of our lord

Click to expand...

Perish the thought that anybody should philosophise about religion! :\ Anyway, the topic was started with a query about the Bishop of Kerry's comments about Catholic practice so it's not surprising that the discussion has focused on Catholicism to a large extent (although probably not as much as atheism). I personally don't care what people do as long as it doesn't impinge on the property or person of others. However I certainly don't have much respect for those who purport to follow any religion or other belief system by default (e.g. just because they were born into it, to keep the parents happy, for the children etc.), when they don't even understand the basic underlying tenets and/or are too ignorant or lazy to learn about, understand and adhere to them - a common enough occurrence in Ireland, and probably elsewhere, in my view.

.

It would be interesting to stand up in front of a Catholic congregation and ask them if they believe that the host is now the flesh of Christ. (after the priest has done all the stuff)

What is holy water? What is a blessing? I'm also firmly convinced when This post will be deleted if not edited immediately said 'do this in memory of me' - He probably didn't mean it quite so literally. Maybe He meant for us to live our lives like He lived His life. Did This post will be deleted if not edited immediately ever make holy water?

"If as a Catholic you don't believe in transubstantiation and in the immaculate conception, then can you really be a Catholic?"

You asked the above Marion. I was merely pointing out that it's not simply a matter of choosing all the time. Most catholics imo would believe in the immaculate conception but not in transubstantiation .

"These are 2 of the major differences between the Catholic and Protestant religions."

Yes...I understand that. But you say that some catholics should be protestants...I was pointing out that the catholic church preaches many things, including that the use of condoms is a sin. So should those catholics who don't use condoms actually be something else?

Church and religion is about more than just belief for a lot of Irish people...it's also about community and a sense of belonging.

Re: .

You think a fat guy with a white beard a red costume flying reindeer, and a bag full of toys is imagery of Saint Nicholas?

Click to expand...

In a word yes, the beard is from the traditional image of St. Nicholas (although also possibly the Magi). The bag full of toys comes from the legend of St. Nicholas being a friend of children. While others are of mixed origin including Clement Moore's poem.
You obviously disagree, so where did you think the origin of Santy with a beard and toys came from if it has nothing to do with Saint Nick?
Next thing you'll be telling me the Christmas crib and the shamrock on St. Paddy's Day have no Christian origins either. LOL!