Bertie Ahern: Good deal or bad deal for people of Ireland

[Vanilla]

Although I didn't agree with everything he said or did, or the way he did it, I used to have a grudging admiration for McDowell for the way he stood up to the Republicans. I had this impression that he was the kind of person who stood up for what he believed in regardless of the consequences- that he was a straight talker and honest. That he didn't suffer fools gladly. But in one fell swoop he turned that image on it's head. Sad to see that his need for power outweighed his need for justice. Power corrupts and absolute power...

 

[daltonr]

When my time comes dying in a bed rather than a trolley isnt going to make me less dead.

True, but it might make you more comfortable, which isn't much to ask.
Or perhaps it is too much to ask.

You are absolutely correct of course. There are bad people in every society, and they make things difficult for everyone else. But the conditions you describe of discharging yourself after 3 days on a Trolly IS the fault of the people charged with responsibility for running the Health Service.

Yes, we should be taking a harder line with drunks who clog up A&E. Yes, those people should have to pay a severe penalty.

I spent quite a while in hospitals in the 80's. On one occasion a guy who escaped from police by jumping out of a second floor window was brought in with injuries. I don't even know what he was doing in hospital, because he seemed to have recovered and was up and walking around when he arrived in the Ward. I personally think there was nowhere for him in Prison.

That guy was a lunatic. He was a danger to everyone else in the ward. I personally saw him urinate in a Lucozade bottle of another patient. Had I not seen it happen, and alterted the nurses, who knows...

I saw him physically threaten patients, and he tried unsuccessfully to intimidate me.

We can reserve the medical wing of Mountjoy so criminals like Liam Lawlor doesn't have to mix with other prisoners, but patients like you and me have to put up with them in our wards and A&E while we're recovering from illness.

There's no point asking drunks and criminals, and coke heads to look into their hearts and examine their behaviour. The best we can hope for is the the state will do it's best to keep them away from the rest of us.

It doesn't seem to be difficult to protect their own ass when one of them ends up in Jail. But then again....they're special aren't they?

Let's not absolve government and the state so easily from it's responsibility. Or if we do absolve them let's at least ask why certain sections of society get such a good deal.

When one group go to jail and are surrounded by medical staff, and another goes to hospital and are surrounded by criminals, then you've got a seriously screwed up value system.

-Rd

 

[Glenbhoy]

My father is a teacher in low income area of Dublin, his class size is 18, the average class size in the school is 22, not perfect, but not 30 either

I'm not a mad fan of FF or even the PD's I would normally look to vote for FG , which i wont now because of their labour association, or Inds however I am sick of people telling us how bad we have it, i remember when it was a lot, lot worse.

My wife teaches in middle class Dublin and has 36 pupils - not perfect either (I do acknowledge there have been great strides in disadvantaged areas).
Re your plan to vote FF, do you know that the bookies favourite (and what I've heard from sources within ff) is a labour and FF coalition?? Like many others on here my problem is not ff, but their leader, and it's not his little bungs, it's the profligacy with which they've handed out needless tax breaks, given away state assets and generally never obtaining value for the taxpayer. The opposition may be poor, but can they do much worse??

 

[contemporary]

my plan to vote FF? where did i say that? I said I wasnt a mad fan of FF but I dont think they did as bad a job as some like to make out. The willingness of Kenny to jump into bed with Pat Rabbitte was enough to turn me off the FG/Lab option, I'd rather vote for the PD's if it served to keep the shinners out.

I'd disagree with you idea of needless tax breaks, some have been here since the 60's, things like reducing CGT from 40% to 20% actually saw the tax take increase, lower PAYE has beeen good for us all, they brought in a minimum wage, I'm starting to sound like a bandwagon supporter....

headlines like 180 millionaires paid no tax are down to effective tax planning and investing in things like car parks, hotels, private nursing homes, retirement homes, things we all either directly or indirectly gain from. Can you honestly say if you had the ability to legally avoid tax you wouldnt, I know I would.

 

[daltonr]

I said I wasnt a mad fan of FF but I dont think they did as bad a job as some like to make out.

I think the Irish economy is in good shape, and one of it's architects has been banished. The Infrastructure is very poor, there's no 2 ways about it.

I visited rural parts of Malaysia that had a better road network than any part of Ireland. Granted I managed to stay in a place that only had water every second day from time to time, but even there they managed to build an impressive road network.

The planning and development of Dublin has been awful, and we can't blame lack of understanding, or building the city on a shoestring, much of Dublin's spread and development has happened recently.

I used to think as I looked and the endless cranes that it'll be a great city when they finish building it. But I now see I was wrong. Through either corruption or incompetence we've screwed up the capital city to an extent that I can no longer even imagine feasible ways to improve it.

In sport it's ok to look at the score board at the end and say, they played poorly, the made serious mistakes, cheated at every opportunity, but at least they got away with the three points.

In life you can't excuse mistakes on the scale we've seen by pointing to the scoreboard and saying, at least the GDP looks good.

Perhaps Bertie does think he is in sports management. Perhaps he genuinely believes that all that matters is the score. Perhaps the cliche's about living in an economy instead of a society are not just true, but part of the plan.

-Rd

 

[Glenbhoy]

I'd disagree with you idea of needless tax breaks, some have been here since the 60's, things like reducing CGT from 40% to 20% actually saw the tax take increase, lower PAYE has beeen good for us all, they brought in a minimum wage, I'm starting to sound like a bandwagon supporter....

headlines like 180 millionaires paid no tax are down to effective tax planning and investing in things like car parks, hotels, private nursing homes, retirement homes, things we all either directly or indirectly gain from. Can you honestly say if you had the ability to legally avoid tax you wouldnt, I know I would.

The reduction of cgt from 40% to 20% is not a tax break (although i would be in favour of paying it at top rate), nor is lower paye, but I certainly don't want it going lower.
What i'm referring to are the continued existence of property tax breaks (amongst others), whilst initially a good idea, they should have been phased out 6/7yrs ago. I have absolutely no problem with people planning effectively to avoid tax, nor do i have a problem with tax incentives, the thing is, the incentive should be to provide something useful for the community, a plethora of hotels or holiday apartments in Carrick on Shannon are not in my opinion long term strategic goals for the Irish nation.
Is our construction industry not overheated enough as is?

 

[daltonr]

> the thing is, the incentive should be to provide something useful for the > community

A good example would be to abolish stamp duty for anyone buying a home in underpopulated areas, but double the stamp duty for people buying second homes there.

If you must give property incentives then some sort of incentive to actually move away from the overdeveloped east cost, particularly around Dublin, rather than giving people incentives to blot the countryside with holiday homes, while they keep living in Dublin.

Right now anyone who bought a house in Dublin would have to write off any stamp duty they've already paid, and write another cheque for the stamp duty on a house down the country.

If we can't get incentives that do some good, can we at least get rid of the ones that do harm?

-Rd

 

[Chamar]

Chamar, I think the point is that people are not dying because they're on trollies. They're dying because they're sick, and they may sometimes happen to be on trollies.

Come to think of it, are you not just scaremongering with your assertions here? Can you tell us any/how many occasions where someone has actually died while they were on a trolley in any hospital in this country?

Ronan, I am fully aware of the point the poster was making and I find it disgusting to sincerely remark or imply that since a person is dying it doesn't matter or it is not a big deal that they are left on a trolley in a hospital corridor. I don't think anyone, dying or otherwise should be subject to these conditions given our priviliged position in the world. And I find it shocking to be arguing this point.

As for scaremongering, I'm not trying to say it happens everyday but frankly once is too much.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1579202&issue_id=13798

 

[daltonr]

I don't think anyone, dying or otherwise should be subject to these conditions given our priviliged position in the world. And I find it shocking to be arguing this point.

Sadly, settling for less seems to becoming more common in the New Ireland. On another thread we had the discussion about whether people should change job, and/or move house, to fit their life around the woeful public transport system.

Let's not get hung up on whether or not the person is dying, though you are right, once is one too many. It would be a sad day if dying became the criteria for getting a bed.

Any patient, young or old deserves more that to spend days on a trolly. How many of you have spent any time on one? I mean really spent time, as in, you can't move on your own. I don't mean you can sit up, or go for a walk.

Try lying on one for a couple of hours and then see what you'd think of a couple of days. Then tell me again how wealthy the country is, and how ungreatful we all are for questioning things.

Perhaps you could do a public service and go to A&E wards and cheer up the residents by reminding them of the 70's and 80's.

-Rd

 

[RainyDay]

I remember an Ireland where those who could afford a college education only did it to leave the country, I remember an Ireland where Barry Desmonds health cuts crippled the health service,

Oooh very selective memory there - Barry Desmond (or Bruton as Minister for Finance) inherited vast defecits after CJH went on a 'sailor in a whorehouse' spending spree to try to buy the results of the 81 election. The spending came just after his 'we have to tighten our belts' broadcast to the nation.

 

[Megan]

Sadly, settling for less seems to becoming more common in the New Ireland. On another thread we had the discussion about whether people should change job, and/or move house, to fit their life around the woeful public transport system.

Let's not get hung up on whether or not the person is dying, though you are right, once is one too many. It would be a sad day if dying became the criteria for getting a bed.

Any patient, young or old deserves more that to spend days on a trolly. How many of you have spent any time on one? I mean really spent time, as in, you can't move on your own. I don't mean you can sit up, or go for a walk.

Try lying on one for a couple of hours and then see what you'd think of a couple of days. Then tell me again how wealthy the country is, and how ungreatful we all are for questioning things.

Perhaps you could do a public service and go to A&E wards and cheer up the residents by reminding them of the 70's and 80's.

-Rd

I thinlk we have all gone soft in this new Ireland. I think it is a case of until you youself or someone very close to you is lying on a trolly we dont really know what it is like. When you spent time with an elderly relative on a trolly in a corridor of a busy hospital and every nurse looks straight ahead in case she would catch your eye and her not having any answer for you, again I say until it is at your door you dont really understand. When those politicans come calling to my door I will be asking why? and I would ask everyone else to do likewise.

 

[contemporary]

Oooh very selective memory there - Barry Desmond (or Bruton as Minister for Finance) inherited vast defecits after CJH went on a 'sailor in a whorehouse' spending spree to try to buy the results of the 81 election. The spending came just after his 'we have to tighten our belts' broadcast to the nation.

The Honestly it was like that when we got here pleas never did go down well with the electorate

I was more comparing the state of the nation then with the state of the nation now, as opposed to any one political party, however historically Barry Desmond will always be associated with health cuts.

One of the important things to ask is has the government learnt from its mistakes? Like every other person I have made mistakes i have regretted, i think it is a bit rich to expect the government, who are people too, get every call right, somethings they got wrong like the port tunnel however they learnt from the (very expensive) mistakes of that and introduced contracts that have seen infrastructure, like the bypasses on the N7/M7 opening quicker than planned and on budget.

I suppose I work on the philosophy that the man who never made a mistake never made anything at all

 

[RainyDay]

The Honestly it was like that when we got here pleas never did go down well with the electorate

I was more comparing the state of the nation then with the state of the nation now, as opposed to any one political party, however historically Barry Desmond will always be associated with health cuts.

You're right insofar as the electorate never liked the blaming stuff. But that doesn't affect the facts - it just makes them unpalatable facts.

In terms of Barry Desmond & health cuts, this was never an associate that would ever have sprung to my mind. gives a pretty clear result as to who most people associate with health cuts.

and he obviously omitted to tell his solicitor he was flush, otherwise why was the his solicitor dropping hints all over the place about bertie's financial woes? and the 'bhoys' in manchester obviously didnt know he had a jacobs tin under the bed full of used fivers either.
another point: how exactly are td's paid? into their bank account or in cash? just wondering how his ministers salary was actually paid and received by him?

Now this is getting interesting. Presumably he wasn't paid in cash. Given that he didn't have a bank account, payment by transfer wouldn't have been possible. So payment by cheque was the only possibility.

So was he cashing the cheques in Fagan's? Not very appropriate for a Minister for Finance. Did the Dept of Finance really issue uncrossed cheques that would have allowed him to cash them without having his own account?

Curiouser & curiouser.....

 

[contemporary]

naughty naughty rainyday, this googlefight would blame desmond.....


not that google fight has anything to do with the mindset or memories of people of a certain age group, who they blame, or peoples voting patterns in general.

 

[micamaca]

Yes, we should be taking a harder line with drunks who clog up A&E. Yes, those people should have to pay a severe penalty.

-Rd

I agree absolutely. A friend of mine from Croatia says anyone who is picked up drunk or out of it on the streets is put in jail for the night by the police. They are most certainly not sent to hospitals.

Who would be a nurse in this country? Most people choose to become nurses to help ill people and to help the helpless. Drunk and drugged teenagers and adults are not ill, they are not helpless. They use their own free will to make themselves very ill.

I think someone in authority needs to take a stand, the best people would be the government. What is there to dissuade people from unsociable drinking...nothing. nothing at all. and so the problem grows and our drunken reputation grows around the world.

I feel the same as some people, I think this government has got used to teh power and most of them don't want to lose it so they will stick with Bertie as it means they don't risk an election just yet. Michael McDowell is a prime example. .Can't stand him either, an obnoxious aggressive bully are words that spring to mind everytime I hear him speak. I don't want FF in power as they have no fear of retribution but FG/Labour are not inspiring either. What to do..who to vote for...its not very bright for the future. And we are far too forgiving as a nation...in so many ways. We need to wake up and do more than complain to each other. Myself included.

 

[Glenbhoy]

I agree absolutely. A friend of mine from Croatia says anyone who is picked up drunk or out of it on the streets is put in jail for the night by the police. They are most certainly not sent to hospitals.

Who would be a nurse in this country? Most people choose to become nurses to help ill people and to help the helpless. Drunk and drugged teenagers and adults are not ill, they are not helpless. They use their own free will to make themselves very ill.

And do we really want to adopt Croatian practices?? They don't seem particularly humane to me.
So when we decide not to treat people who become ill through their own free will, where does it stop - should we stop treating obese people because they had a doughnut (or two) too many, smokers, motorists (who may have been exceeding the speed limit).......

 

[Superman]

Drunk and drugged teenagers and adults are not ill, they are not helpless. They use their own free will to make themselves very ill.

Aah... I think you just contradicted yourself there.

 

[micamaca]

I'm not suggesting we adopt Croatia's methods but I'm just comparing how the two countries deal with a social problem...perhaps somewhere inbetween there might be a solution. Yes, it might seem a very hard line approach but the soft line approach of welcoming them into our wards is not helping them really is it? They go back out and do it again the next week...and I suppose I find it hard to understand how there is so much tolerance for people getting so drunk they cannot look after themselves but have to be admitted to hospitals when there is a crisis in our health care anyway.

I don't see how you can bring up obesity in the same argument. Obese people are rarely admitted at all hours of the morning, abusive and vomiting on themselves and staff are they?

Dangerous driving is being addressed by the government, why isn't this? Asking Diageo and others to put "drink in moderation" at the end of ads is hardly enough.

 

[daltonr]

A very simple solution would be to breath test or blood test anyone who appears drunk in A&E. I presume there would be no constitutional issues with that as it's presumably necessary to check if their condition is alcohol induced or not.

Set a limit, let's say 3 times or 4 times the legal limit for driving. Anyone who arrives in A&E over and above that higher limit would be charged (or fined if you prefer) a very substantial sum of money, which would be ring fenced for A&E funding.

The presense of any level of illegal drugs in the system would automatically incur the fine.

Anyone unable to pay cash, would have either their welfare reduced, or their tax credits reduced until the fine is paid off.

One would hope that taking some cash out of their pocket would at best give them pause for thought, and at worse give them a little less to spend on alcohol and thereby make it slightly more difficult to get into the same mess again.

Yes, I know this could be hard on spouses, children, yes I know that some of these idiots will probably spend money on Beer and drugs than on food. But you know what, they're doing that now anyway.

I don't think there should be a question of withholding medical treatment from anyone, regardless of how they were injured. However there is no reason why some punishment can't be applied.

If this is genuinely a very serious problem that is impinging on the comfort and well being of genuine patients, then we should face up to it and build a couple of specific A&E wings to treat those with anti-social behaviour problems. I'd attach an A&E unit to a couple of prisons around the country so that their criminal behaviour can be processed in the same place as their medical condition, and as soon as they are able to move they can be moved to a cell.

A problem like this in a society is a symptom of a deeper social illness. We need to find the cause and cure it, but in the meantime we need to perform some social triage and get these people out of the A&E units and into units where they can be treated by people specifically trained to deal with them. We don't need to do this for their benefit, but for the benefit of everyone else who is put in harms way by having to deal with them, or deal with the A&E overcrowding that they contribute to.

-Rd

 

[micamaca]

A very simple solution would be to breath test or blood test anyone who appears drunk in A&E. I presume there would be no constitutional issues with that as it's presumably necessary to check if their condition is alcohol induced or not.

Set a limit, let's say 3 times or 4 times the legal limit for driving. Anyone who arrives in A&E over and above that higher limit would be charged (or fined if you prefer) a very substantial sum of money, which would be ring fenced for A&E funding.

The presense of any level of illegal drugs in the system would automatically incur the fine.

Anyone unable to pay cash, would have either their welfare reduced, or their tax credits reduced until the fine is paid off.

One would hope that taking some cash out of their pocket would at best give them pause for thought, and at worse give them a little less to spend on alcohol and thereby make it slightly more difficult to get into the same mess again.

Yes, I know this could be hard on spouses, children, yes I know that some of these idiots will probably spend money on Beer and drugs than on food. But you know what, they're doing that now anyway.

I don't think there should be a question of withholding medical treatment from anyone, regardless of how they were injured. However there is no reason why some punishment can't be applied.

If this is genuinely a very serious problem that is impinging on the comfort and well being of genuine patients, then we should face up to it and build a couple of specific A&E wings to treat those with anti-social behaviour problems. I'd attach an A&E unit to a couple of prisons around the country so that their criminal behaviour can be processed in the same place as their medical condition, and as soon as they are able to move they can be moved to a cell.

A problem like this in a society is a symptom of a deeper social illness. We need to find the cause and cure it, but in the meantime we need to perform some social triage and get these people out of the A&E units and into units where they can be treated by people specifically trained to deal with them. We don't need to do this for their benefit, but for the benefit of everyone else who is put in harms way by having to deal with them, or deal with the A&E overcrowding that they contribute to.

-Rd

I think you make a lot of sense! Yes, I think if someone was hit financially then they may have to change their social habits... as you say, they are getting money from somewhere to drink too much so perhaps if they had less money because of their habit, maybe the penny would drop.

And I'm not suggesting people don't get treated, but after they get treated there should be something to deter them from getting so bad again. A lesson learnt so to speak. But there is a big problem here and we don't know the half of it. Unless you spend time in A&E, I don't think any of us will realise how this problem is affecting our health system and thus other people here...
Unfortunately its in our culture, you only have to look at the number of bars in Ireland see just how much. It's a tough one.