Bertie Ahern: Good deal or bad deal for people of Ireland

Bertie Ahern disgusts me. All he does is cut ribbons while people are dying on hospital trollies in appalling conditions. After 10 years in office with a booming economy behind him he should be ashamed at this. This scandal aside, I hope he gets voted out. Do I think it will happen? No.
 

This has been one of my key questions all along. I believe it is also the reason why the tribunal are going after Celias bank accounts around that time as well now.
 

I remember an Ireland where those who could afford a college education only did it to leave the country, I remember an Ireland where Barry Desmonds health cuts crippled the health service, I remember an Ireland where unemployment was rampant, I remember an Ireland where primary teachers were on a list to lose their jobs when class sizes were 30 children plus

Why do we have people dying in hospitals? look at the amount of drunks in A&E on a saturday night, look at the mindless violence that is on our streets, the increase in drug use. I had a conversation recently with a bloke from clare who was up for the all ireland final, he was giving out about bertie and the boom and how his mother spent 2 days on a chair in limerick general, just like the quoted post. Where was he the night before the all ireland? lying in james a&e out of his head on booze and coke.

Sometimes people should look to their own behaviour and see what effect that is having on the rest of society
 
It's harsh to blame an individual minister like Barry Desmond for cutbacks, no doubt the finance minister (Bruton) in aggreement with the government told him how much money he had to work with. Every health minister would prefer to be dispensing largesse than cutting back.

There was a general policy fiscal rectitude as CJH called it anyway by all parties from the early eighties to about the mid nineties. I seem to remember the Fianna Fail in 87 continued the cutbacks with increased vigour, despite whining hypocritically about them while in opposition.

I believe all parties were trying to keep the punt and economy reasonably healthy to encourage inward investment - it may just have worked.
 
contemporary said:
when class sizes were 30 children plus
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So it used to be better than now?
Why do we have people dying in hospitals?
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Because we don't have the capacity to treat everyone effectively, despite throwing billions at the problem?
Sometimes people should look to their own behaviour and see what effect that is having on the rest of society
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Agree 100%.
The problem that us disillusioned have is that much of the benefits of the increased prosperity seem to have been squandered, our transport, education and health systems are in pretty dire straits, I realise that not everything is bad and that FF can take many plaudits for overseeing many aspects of the boom. However, I personally would be much more likely to vote for them if the present taoiseach were gone - he is the face of FF that I cannot abide (though Hannafin, Cullen and Martin run him close).
 

Of course people should look at their own behaviour, everyone should do that always, regardless of FF/Bertie & friends. But I'm sorry, when you have a government in power for the length of time Bertie has been with all the resources at his disposal and people are LITERALLY dying on TROLLIES in hospitals is unacceptable. No matter how many other good things you think Bertie & co. are doing this alone should have people calling for his head. I'm sorry but it just really disgusts me when Bertie is lauded for being able to attend 15 functions a day. If I see one more picture of him cutting a ribbon or planting a tree I am going to vomit. I mean, why do we elect a president??? Can't she do these things? Him taking that money was plain wrong but frankly that is not the issue for me. People needlessly DYING is the issue for me. And I know the opposition are crap but god, it just depressing to think of the current bunch getting re-elected which you just know is going to happen.
 
Chamar said:
people are LITERALLY dying on TROLLIES in hospitals is unacceptable. No matter how many other good things you think Bertie & co. are doing this alone should have people calling for his head........ People needlessly DYING is the issue for me.
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Are people dying because they are on trolleys?
What government will be able to take on the consultants and the INO?
I ask because the waste in the health service will not stop until this happens.
BTW I heard on RTE radio that the number of people on trolleys has dropped by 45% over the last year. The guy from the INO welcomed this and accepted that Mary Harney was doing her best to improve the situation.
 
Bertie must be feeling fairly smug today.

I feel like I have just had a glimpse of the real Bertie and I don't like what I saw. Everyone must make their own mind up, that's the essence of a democracy, if he comes out of this unscathed, well, so be it. It's probably a reflection in what we have come to expect of our politicians- evidently there is not an expectation that they should be above such irregularities ( my own opinion is that irregularity is not the correct term but this is not clear).

Bertie is a very clever man. But I won't be voting for him or for a party with him as a leader.
 
The cutbacks of the 80's were required to some extent because Jack Lynch bought an overall majority in 1977 and paid a hell of a lot more than he needed to get it.

Of course the economic story in Ireland over the last 10 to 15 years has been remarkable. And we should acknowledge the politicians who contributed to that, even CJH deserves credit though I know people despise him. I honestly believe his net contribution to the country was greater than Aherns.

It's interseting that the Finance Minister who presided over a good deal of the prosperity was shipped off to Europe by Ahern. During his time in charge McCreevy did a good job of managing the finances that was his job. And despite what you may have been led to believe, he did give money to departments like Health. It's not his fault if that Department couldn't be controlled.

McCreevy did some things I didn't like, like increasing indirect (regressive taxes), but it's notable that when they sent him away, they didn't reverse any of those policies, so that wasn't the aspect of his performance that they didn't like.

It wouldn't surprise me if numbers on trollies is finally dropping. It's about bloody time. I do think Mary Harney is extremely good, though I'll admit she's surrounded by a shower that make for good comparison.

She's had her off days as well, the Nursing Home issue being a case in point, but in general, It's fair to say that if Health was as bad when she left it as when she took over then we'd be in real trouble.

After the week or two of refelations that we've seen and after Aherns abject failure to perform in the Dail, it is utterly depressing that opinions polls show an increase in support for Fianna Fail.

If this opinion poll turns out to be true then prepare for lots more teary eyed stories by ministers and other politicians. Party Political broadcasts will all begin with "Once upon a time...", and Sinead O'Conner will have a new career training ministers on how to shed a tear on demand.

The only bright spot is tinged with a little saddness for me. I honestly thought the PD's represented something new and hopeful in Irish Politics. I liked many of the people who set it up and I think they were sincere in what they were trying to do.

Michael McDowells rise to prominence pretty much ended my interest in the party, and taking over the leadership killed it completely. I will take a tiny bit of satisfaction from seeing him fail spectacularly as leader, I'll be astonished if they get more than 2 seats, and I'm hopeful they'll get none at all.

That photo of him up the lamp post should be handed to any PD folk who come knocking for votes, along with one word..."Explain".

Mixed emiotions though. It's like watching someone you really hate driving a Ferrari off a cliff. Good to see the back of them, but shame we couldn't save the Ferrari.

-Rd
 
Purple said:
Are people dying because they are on trolleys?
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Are you for real??? Do you think it's okay for seriously ill people to be left on a trolly in the corridor?

Purple said:
What government will be able to take on the consultants and the INO?
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Not this one, that is for sure.


Purple said:
BTW I heard on RTE radio that the number of people on trolleys has dropped by 45% over the last year. The guy from the INO welcomed this and accepted that Mary Harney was doing her best to improve the situation.
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Hurrah! After 10 years we have a REDUCTION in the number of people on trollies. We won't talk about the abominable treatment of many critically ill people with cancer etc. No regional strategy, appalling hygiene in hospitals, asshole consultants etc. etc. etc.

It's really sad. People in this country obviously just take their health for granted and so long as it's not one of them they are happy to carry on rewarding this, backslapping, wink-wink, cute hoorism as is evidenced by the latest poll results. We get what we deserve.
 
Hang on, billions are put into the health service, people who sadly dry on trolleys are not dying because they are on a trolley nor are the dying because they are not being seen to. When my time comes dying in a bed rather than a trolley isnt going to make me less dead. Have a look at the reasons why there isnt beds available for the people on trolleys, drunks, brawlers druggies will take up large slice of an A&E's resources at a weekend.

I once spent 3 days on a trolley in tallaght a&e, all of which was spent in a major burns treatment room (i wonder what would have happend to someone with major burns), the trolley next to contained a bloke too out of it to speak his name, he soiled himself and the room on a regular basis, half the others were drunk or had ODed which was a lovely environment to spend 3 days, there was 30 on trolleys with one toilet and a hand basin to wash in. I discharged myself AMA on day three because the conditions were so bad, but it wasnt the fault of the government that the gob****e next to me would pi$$ in the corner every couple of hours.

I dont know what has changed in Irish hospitals over the years, i suspect that many drunks were sent home rather than admitted because of fear that "my little johnny was turned away from hospital and died".

Take the example in my earlier post, there was a bed/trolley taken up with someone who didnt need to be there, someone who shouldnt have put himself into the condition that he ended up there, look at what he cost you and me,
1. the cost of transporting him by ambulance.
2. the cost of the time of the admin staff to admit him.
3. the cost of the nurse to triage him.
4. the cost of the doctor to treat him
5. the cost of the nurse to monitor him over the night.
6. the cost of the admin staff to discharge him
7. the cost to send him his a&e bill and follow up payment.

How much do you think that cost you and me??? I dont know the exact cost but I can bet you its a damn sight more than the €55 a&e charge that he got.

There is a perfect example of waste in our health system, easily avoided if he didnt do a few lines of coke and stopped after the 2nd or 3rd short. No matter how many billions we throw at the HSE if people dont take responsibility for their own actions then very little will improve
 
Glenbhoy said:
So it used to be better than now?
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My father is a teacher in low income area of Dublin, his class size is 18, the average class size in the school is 22, not perfect, but not 30 either

I'm not a mad fan of FF or even the PD's I would normally look to vote for FG , which i wont now because of their labour association, or Inds however I am sick of people telling us how bad we have it, i remember when it was a lot, lot worse.
 
Chamar said:
Do you think it's okay for seriously ill people to be left on a trolly in the corridor?
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No, but I think it’s Ok for a person to spend some time on a mobile bed in an A&E department while they are being treated.

Chamar said:
Not this one, that is for sure.
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I know that but that’s not what I asked.

So you would support a government that forces change through even if the unions disagree with it? Would you continue to support them if they started sacking nurses that were on strike? Because that’s what they would have to do.

I don’t take my health for granted but I don’t take the knee jerk simplistic view that it’s all the fault of those pesky politicians. There are 100’000 people paid by the exchequer working in the health service. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask some of them and their lobby groups to shoulder a portion of the blame.
 
Purple said:
Are people dying because they are on trolleys?
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Chamar said:
Are you for real??? Do you think it's okay for seriously ill people to be left on a trolly in the corridor?
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Chamar, I think the point is that people are not dying because they're on trollies. They're dying because they're sick, and they may sometimes happen to be on trollies.

Come to think of it, are you not just scaremongering with your assertions here? Can you tell us any/how many occasions where someone has actually died while they were on a trolley in any hospital in this country?
 
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