I think the more general point out of this is how we view failed enterprise.
This country was going nowhere for years because there was no one to take a risk.
We then developed a culture of risk taking and had a golden period of 10 years where every young person coming out of school/college in the country (and many older ones who had been on the long term unemployment scrapheap) were given the opportunity to participate in the economic success of the country.
200,000 people who would otherwise have sat around scratching their asses on the dole were gainfully employed.
Now we've hit the wall because of our lack of imagination in persiting with building more an more houses.
Many people may curse the entrepreneurs who have led us through all of this but that is incredibly short sighted as:
A) It disregards a decade of economic success
B) It is not progressive to discourage enterprise
No he didn't but he (and others) assisted in pushing the price of houses to astronomical levels.
When we bought our house in 2005 my wife was on maternity leave and rather than wait for the showhouses to open on the Saturday, she went to the selling agent and put a booking deposit down on the Thursday, thus securing the house at €365K.
When the showhouses opened on Saturday, the same houses were €395K!
Do you think that the builder really needed the extra €30K per house? All pure profit (ex VAT of course). Possibly about as much as a Premiership footballer really "needs" that extra €20K per week in his wage packet.
I hope he loses everything.
I think the more general point out of this is how we view failed enterprise.
This country was going nowhere for years because there was no one to take a risk.
We then developed a culture of risk taking and had a golden period of 10 years where every young person coming out of school/college in the country (and many older ones who had been on the long term unemployment scrapheap) were given the opportunity to participate in the economic success of the country.
200,000 people who would otherwise have sat around scratching their asses on the dole were gainfully employed.
Now we've hit the wall because of our lack of imagination in persiting with building more an more houses.
Many people may curse the entrepreneurs who have led us through all of this but that is incredibly short sighted as:
A) It disregards a decade of economic success
B) It is not progressive to discourage enterprise
Didn't seem to buy him the best of valuers!Exactly RonanC - all that money buys the best of Accountants
By the way, didn't you start a thread about the Irish being begrudgers....
Neither the banks or the developers were to blame. If you want to blame a group, blame the government.It was already said the banks were to blame to one of my previous posts.... i can read plenty of posts that blame the developers on this site so why is he any different?
Did he not offer to repay his borrowings @ €100,000 per month? So he is not what you'd call strapped.I am sure I am going to lambasted for writing this.
I have just been reading todays papers about Bernard McNamara and saw him on the news last night also. I am finding it difficult not to feel a bit sorry for him (as a person).
I know this is probably mad (to feel sorry for him) but after working for years (most likely very hard) in a family business he now has nothing and is going to loose everything, effectively because he made miscalculated deals and because the banks allowed him to borrow extortionate amounts of money which he used personal guarantees for.
I just feel a little sorry for him and his family...
Anyone else feel any sympathy?
Neither the banks or the developers were to blame. If you want to blame a group, blame the government.
It was the government that fuelled the bubble with their property tax incentives. At any stage, the government could have stopped the 'soft regulation' - but decided not to. Now they seem to be blocking an enquiry into the banks. I wonder why?
The developers are trying to make as much money as possible. They didn't break any laws. Same with the banks.
Blame the government for creating the mess, and blame them again for forcing us to pay for it!
I agree completely; the government created the environment where capital was sucked into construction rather than export focused businesses. Builders just reacted to that. I always get a laugh at the simple minded people who talk about greedy builders and developers and how they overcharged for houses. They didn’t overcharge; people overpaid. Anyone who has ever sold their house needs to ask themselves one question; did you a) seek to get the highest price for the property or b) did you sell it to the buyer that you thought was the most needy? If the answer was “a” then you are no different from any developer or builder that sought to maximise their return while operating within the law. If you thing otherwise then you are an idiot.
I think the more general point out of this is how we view failed enterprise.
This country was going nowhere for years because there was no one to take a risk.
We then developed a culture of risk taking and had a golden period of 10 years where every young person coming out of school/college in the country (and many older ones who had been on the long term unemployment scrapheap) were given the opportunity to participate in the economic success of the country.
200,000 people who would otherwise have sat around scratching their asses on the dole were gainfully employed.
Now we've hit the wall because of our lack of imagination in persiting with building more an more houses.
Many people may curse the entrepreneurs who have led us through all of this but that is incredibly short sighted as:
A) It disregards a decade of economic success
B) It is not progressive to discourage enterprise
+1. Same for the eejits who paid 80k to join the K club, 130k for their 6 series BMW, 500K for a hol home in Spain. All decisions made without duress.
I always get a laugh at the simple minded people who talk about greedy builders and developers and how they overcharged for houses. They didn’t overcharge; people overpaid.
there's a distinction between those who paid (what we now know was) over the odds for their principal residence and those who paid over the odds for discretionary items such as holiday homes, second cars, etc, etc.
A lot of first-time buyers believed (and were encouraged by vested interests to believe) that failure to purchase asap would put them at risk of never being able to have a home of their own. There was little support for what was the minority, but entirely logical, view that house prices couldn't continue to rise in value at the rates they had been.
Personally, i have little sympathy for anyone who's stuck with a shoebox in bulgaria who might "talk to joe" about how unfairly he's been stitched up. But my heart goes out to first-time buyers who bought at the high-end and effectively mortgaged their futures.
They could have rented, just like people do in other countries. Oh, and if enough people had stayed at home with mammy and daddy the boom wouldn’t have been so big and the crash would have happened sooner. Anyway, that’s not the point I was making. Anyone selling something in a commercial setting will get the best price they can for it, be it you or I selling a second hand car or kitchen table or a developer selling a house. Suggesting that the root cause of our problems was the “greedy developers” is rubbish. Where corruption and bribery came into play it was a different matter.What exactly do you think these "simple-minded" people were supposed to do? Sit at home and live with Mammy & Daddy for an extra 10+ years until they were nearly 40 in the hope that eventually the property market would come crashing down around everyone else.
ThanksIt's a pity we didn't have great minds like yours to guide us all safely through the boom!
I agree but homeowners are no more victims than anyone else.I would argue that there are 3 groups of people who have been badly affected by the property crash
1. Banks
2. Developers
3. Homeowners
1. The banks are being bailed out by the government/taxpayer
2. The vast majority of developers are OK by virtue of limited liability protection, except in rare cases such as McNamara where he gave personal guarantees over some business debts.
3. No comment
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