"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

WolfeTone said:
Edwin Poots has thrown his hat in the ring. Is he a hard liner? I don't know much about him except he had cancer recently.
A devout Protestant I believe.
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I just hope that if another civil war starts in the UK it doesn't spill over into this country again .
 
Purple said:
I just hope that if another civil war starts in the UK it doesn't spill over into this country again .
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Just to be sure though, we could re-unify the country by rejoining the UK in an economic and trade union.

A reversion back to 1914 when the majority of Irish people were willing participants of the British Empire. When a parliament for All Ireland, through exclusively peaceful and democratic means, had been achieved.

Why not apply the NI protocol to the whole of Ireland?
We could have best of both worlds also. Our deeply historic, cultural ties with Britain could be strengthened not weakened. We could have access to EU single market.
We could have ECJ as a final arbitrator for constitutional and rights disputes.
The Union Jack could fly over Leinster House. Members can take an oath to the Crown, if they wish.
 
Yes, we could do that but why would we? The majority of the people in this country don't want to join the UK and the majority in Northern Ireland don't want to join this country.

If the Nordies could just dial down the bigotry and glorification of murder then, from a Nationalist perspective, demographics will take care of the problem in a few generations.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Ah Wolfie, my recall is that you are a big supporter of GFA. Doesn’t come more partitionist.
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Indeed. There are certainly elements of the GFA I do not like. But in the round it is a good thing. And as my fellow countrymen and women, north and south, have overwhemingly expressed their acceptance of it, I shall accept it too.
There is a lesson in there for the DUP perhaps?
 
Purple said:
The majority of the people in this country don't want to join the UK and the majority in Northern Ireland don't want to join this country.
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Well, yes, on the bare canvass of simply removing the border by referendum, that would appear to be case today etc

But are we not in a 'Shared island' mode? I don't think it is unreasonable to assess that the current situation of a divided Ireland hasn't really worked that well.

So rather than pull Unionists into a United Irish Republic, why not join with them in a federal union between Britain and Ireland? Our history and cultures are inextricably linked, most of the rest of the world cannot distinguish between us. Allowing for all the diversity within our societies centuries old division may disappear and they become irrelevant.
Us Southerners already accept a significant portion of our citizenery should accept their lot in the UK, and it appears a significant portion of that lot are quite content to do so.

Maybe all this Republican idealism was a mistake? Ok, it has great intentions, and yes, London's record of governance in Ireland is pretty absymal.

But as the Reverend Ian said to the Rebel Martin "We don't need Englishmen to rule us. We can do that ourselves."

Afterall, having gained our 'independence' from Britain in 1921, we then joined with them again in another economic union when we joined the EEC 50yrs later.
Our place in the future is to stand with Britain, as equal partners.
 
WolfeTone said:
But are we not in a 'Shared island' mode?
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Yep. Shared being the operative wo

WolfeTone said:
I don't think it is unreasonable to assess that the current situation of a divided Ireland hasn't really worked that well.
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It's working just fine for us. It would work just fine for the Nordies if they could behave like civilised adults and stop with the religion, bigotry and tribalism, if they weren't tethered to the past.

WolfeTone said:
So rather than pull Unionists into a United Irish Republic, why not join with them in a federal union between Britain and Ireland?
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Because that's not what the majority of people want.
WolfeTone said:
Our history and cultures are inextricably linked, most of the rest of the world cannot distinguish between us. Allowing for all the diversity within our societies centuries old division may disappear and they become irrelevant.
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On that basis Canada should join America, Austria should join Germany and all of Africa should join each other. Political union based on the ignorance of people in distant countries isn't a good idea.
WolfeTone said:
Us Southerners already accept a significant portion of our citizenery should accept their lot in the UK, and it appears a significant portion of that lot are quite content to do so.
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An even bigger proportion of our citizens live in the USA. Should we join them as well?
WolfeTone said:
Afterall, having gained our 'independence' from Britain in 1921, we then joined with them again in another economic union when we joined the EEC 50yrs later.
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We both joined the same Union then they left.
WolfeTone said:
Our place in the future is to stand with Britain, as equal partners.
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We were equal partners in the EU but they left.
 
Wolfie, while I'm not taking all this seriously, you'd have to say it would be an odd time to hitch your wagon to the UK with Scotland shaping to leave (whether they actually will....), Welsh nationalism showing early stirrings, & Eng-er-lund going through its worst patch in quite some time.

England doesn't do unions, it does colonies. Not allowing Scotland a vote to see if it wants to stay in the "union" - tis a quare union that you're not allowed hold a vote to see if you want to leave. #coercivecontrol

We'll always have our cultural links, and other than the Tory Party I wish them all well, but I'm sitting pretty looking across at the shambles they are putting themselves through & I wouldn't dream of getting entangled in it (any more than we already are).
 
Purple said:
It's working just fine for us.
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I think we have touched on this 'us' business earlier. There is a clearly a significant portion of 'us', north and south, that feel it isn't working for 'us'.
A quick glance over the last century, Civil war, Insitutionalised sectarianism, Troubles, and now Brexit.
Purple said:
It would work just fine for the Nordies if they could behave like civilised adults and stop with the religion, bigotry and tribalism, if they weren't tethered to the past.
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Yeh, but we could have said that in 1916 before our 'heros' started shooting up the city. Maybe we should tone down the rhethoric there also instead of spending public money on such events?

Purple said:
Because that's not what the majority of people want.
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We don't know, we haven't asked them? Has a federal union of Britain and Ireland even been considered? I'm not aware of it?

Purple said:
On that basis Canada should join America, Austria should join Germany and all of Africa should join each other. Political union based on the ignorance of people in distant countries isn't a good idea.
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Why? Is there a historic border dispute between these countries that keeps manifesting itself in political dispute of these countries? I'm not aware there is. There is certainly a dispute here.
 
I sense, but I might be wrong, that there is a presumption that a Federal union with the UK is ours for the asking. Please realise that in a Federal union of "equals" it is the lesser parties who get most benefit - for example in terms of financial and military security. Why would the Brits welcome us back?
 
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WolfeTone said:
I think we have touched on this 'us' business earlier. There is a clearly a significant portion of 'us', north and south, that feel it isn't working for 'us'.
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I'm talking about "us" being the people in this country.

WolfeTone said:
Yeh, but we could have said that in 1916 before our 'heros' started shooting up the city. Maybe we should tone down the rhethoric there also instead of spending public money on such events?
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Absolutely, but that was over 100 years ago and we have moved on and most of us have matured a bit, unlike a larger proportion of the Nordies.
WolfeTone said:
We don't know, we haven't asked them? Has a federal union of Britain and Ireland even been considered? I'm not aware of it?
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No, but a federal union with Somalia hasn't been considered either and I know what the answer to that one would be too. Maybe the people who read English Newspapers and talk about "us" when referring to British Football Teams would welcome it but it's not in our political or economic interests.
WolfeTone said:
Why? Is there a historic border dispute between these countries that keeps manifesting itself in political dispute of these countries? I'm not aware there is. There is certainly a dispute here.
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Oh, you were talking about it based on the number of Irish Citizens living in Northern Ireland. I was just pointing out that there are more Irish Citizens living in the USA than in Northern Ireland.
 
Betsy Og said:
you'd have to say it would be an odd time to hitch your wagon to the UK with Scotland shaping to leave (whether they actually will....), Welsh nationalism showing early stirrings, & Eng-er-lund going through its worst patch in quite some time.
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I would think the exact opposite. It was David Cameron that touted in the HoC that maybe it was time for an English parliament for England.

I'm talking looking to the future.
Most of divisions is underpinned by symbolism. One great lesson of the GFA is, as Patrick Kielty put it, "it allows Irish people to be Irish and British people to be British".

So Parliaments for England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales in a Federal Union of Great Britain and Ireland. Scotland and Ireland, being pro-EU (including the now former region previously known as NI) can, through their parliaments apply to join the EU in whatever form they want. All in, Norwegian style, Swiss style, or NI protocol style.

Ireland could have a President of the Parliament, that derives its authority from republican principles of democracy and equality for all its citizens. The federal union can be headed by the British Monarch, affording titles of grandeur and pomposity (or whatever it is they get their kicks from) in a House of Lords and Senators who can, if they wish, take an oath of allegience to the British Crown.
 
Meh, I don't see the benefits. Don't we have 'East West' bodies as part of the GFA, that should be enough. I'd maybe just about stomach rejoining the commonwealth ......to be patted on the head by the Queen.... like all the other former colonies, but that would be absolutely as a sop to unionists. It's outdated AF, we're already in one supranational organisation (the EU), I think we should 'stick to the knitting' of managing that relationship - the main interaction with England is markets for their products and ours - but that's dictated by the EU/UK deal anyway, so I honestly don't know what any other arrangements would give us.
 
Note that in most federal arrangements the capital city is deliberately chosen not to be the biggest - e.g. Canada, US, Australia, EU.
In a Federal British Isles would the capital be Dublin? More realistically in a federal UI would Belfast be the correct choice of capital city?
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
More realistically in a federal UI would Belfast be the correct choice of capital city?
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Go for Athlone, geographic centre of Ireland, close to everywhere but needs a few more motorways (that the country needs anyway) - need regional development. No historic baggage in terms of centre of power (Athlone Town doesn't count).

Aren't we blue in the face from agonising over the plight of house buyers on the east coast, time to help them. #rebalance
 
Betsy Og said:
I don't see the benefits
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Well the benefits would be, or intended to be, a deeper integration of the people's of these islands over the long-term. The borders that currently remain is some quarters (primarily in the mindset) will begin to dissolve. National pride and cultural identity in tact, we can all get about our business, and societal battles can be fought on the rugby field or the football field - choose your own battleground.

Duke of Marmalade said:
More realistically in a federal UI would Belfast be the correct choice of capital city?
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Who knows, but good question. I think somewhere like Liverpool would be ideal. It is a city in England, but not a typical English city, or English people. A mish-mash of long cultural ties with Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Both the Orange and Green traditions have a presence there.
It also a city, steeped in soccer culture and rivalry, that is an example of transcending the bigotry in many ways.
 
WolfeTone said:
Well the benefits would be, or intended to be, a deeper integration of the people's of these islands over the long-term.
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I'd rather see the UK re-joining the EU and us all becoming part of a Federal Europe.
Then move the capital to Rome and see if we can get that Empire up and running again. The sex and general carrying on would be only massive; the Romans knew how to enjoy themselves, have you been to Pompeii?
 
All credit to international cooperation and trading relations, but at the end of the day I'm more comfortable with a Europe of national states, than a United States of Europe. Bottom line is that Ireland is too small to matter, and yes we form alliances blah blah and it worked for Brexit, but overall I think the EU has pretty much gone far enough in terms of its reach, I don't want to be encouraging them any further.

If Scotland goes independent it'll be in EU in jig time. I can see England being back in EU in my lifetime.
 
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