"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

WolfeTone said:
If I figure you correctly, your beef is about "quantity, and even quality" of atrocity?
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Actually more underlying motivation. I never had any doubt that the British Government wished to stabilise the situation and, belatedly for sure, they started by addressing the NICRA demands. In fact I never had any doubts that the British were working in my interests.
Republicans on the other hand yearned for a sectarian meltdown in the six counties that would spill over to the 26 and bring about their goal of a 32 county socialist republic.
I have no doubt that the Republican overlords celebrated every excess of the British security forces as it would fuel the MOPE fantasy of which you are a clear believer.
 
The reframing of Irishness as something narrower and Catholic around the start of the last century also made the Protestants feel less Irish than they had in, for example, 1798. That made Home Rule much harder and Partition more inevitable. Basically modern Irish nationalism has always been exclusionary and in denial of our history and the PIRA and the Shinners have kept that tradition of exclusion alive.
Loyalism of course is defined by it's bigotry and exclusion but in the long run they are on the losing side, no matter who wins.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
I never had any doubt that the British Government wished to stabilise the situation and, belatedly for sure,
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Please, Duke, I am not disputing that. Why would Britain want anything else?

But what you seem incapable of grasping is that wishing something and wanting something are fine and dandy, its the actual policy decisions (or none) that effect people on the ground. It is the regard that is afforded to those decisions when they are not working is what is important.
The British government may have wanted to stabilise the situation for sure, but as you say, belatedly - this is the disregard for what was happening right under their noses in the United Kingdom of Britain and NI for 50yrs.

NI was a neglected outpost of the empire since its inception. A creation of the inherent sectarianism of Ulster Protestantism. That is not excuse Catholic bigotry either. The Civil Rights movement shone a light on that nefarious institutionalised bigotry that governed the population. The British government are guilty of neglect and appeasing this apartheid state into its existence.
And when the light was shone on the and sectarian structures of the state the Protestant State gave its answer to reform in the manner that you have already outlined.
I have said this many times - Irelands interests have always been a distant second to Britains interests in the United Kingdom of GB and (NI)Ireland.

I have no doubt that Britain would wash its hands of NI in the morning if it could. But they are as responsible for its creation and dire management as anyone else.

The Catholic Church and Irish government probably didnt intend harm to singles mothers by operating a dire and punitive system of incarceration. They probably thought it was best for stabililty of the Catholic ethos. But thinking they have the best interests in mind, doesn't mean their decisions were in the best interests.


Duke of Marmalade said:
In fact I never had any doubts that the British were working in my interests.
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Perhaps, but you have alluded to it already, it was too little too late. The problems of the NI state began in 1921, from its very inception.

I refer once more to Her Majesty the Q2 "there are things we all wish we could have done differently, or not at all"

Duke of Marmalade said:
Republicans on the other hand yearned for a sectarian meltdown in the six counties
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This is just more infantile projection.

If you plant bombs or take up arms, for sure, you are signaling to everyone that you are preparing to take this all the way to hell and back. This is a no-brainer.

Similarily, if raid entire communities and streets burning the population out of their homes. If you are of the mindset to pick up a Catholic, torture and murder, for kicks, if you send in the Army to "shock and awe" the local population, engaging in cold-blooded murder.

All of these things signal to others 'look what we are prepared to do if you don't toe the line or don't dance to our tune'.

Its warfare. It is not normal and it is naive to expect everyone to act rationally and calmly. Arriving after the fact, to announce that Britain will now act in the interests of everyone - so stop all that shooting, is, too little too late. "Where the .... were you for the last 10, 20, 30, 40, 50yrs?", spings to mind.
 
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@WolfeTone I will concede you one thing. State forces should be held to a far higher standard than terrorists. SF are not applying this filter. For them there is parity of esteem between the BA and the PIRA both for bad and good.
Your statement that you "have no truck with the IRA" gives me hope that you do not seek parity of esteem but are judging the BA by a higher standard, which is fair enough.
 
Purple said:
Basically modern Irish nationalism has always been exclusionary and in denial of our history and the PIRA and the Shinners have kept that tradition of exclusion alive.
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They are not the only ones. I cringed when watching my son partake in an 1916 re-enactment in primary school a few years back. Here is the Dept of Education, overseers of fostering the intellect of the country instilling pride in private armies, without no mandate from anyone, to go and shoot up the city in the name of freedom.
Have these clowns been asleep for the rest of the century?
They cannot even explain why 1916 was 'justified' other than glib "they fought for our freedom from the British" nonsense.
This is why we have a puppet media that beech-slaps a section of the population into their persona of moral outrage and indignantion when someone else, but not suiting the narrative, is commemorated for the exact same thing.
 
So you are saying that we should stop all that stuff?
If so, and that leads to real peace, than I'm with you, but at some stage politics becomes history.
While the families of those who were killed are still alive it's not history and I don't think commemorations of said events are a good idea.
 
WolfeTone said:
Have these clowns been asleep for the rest of the century?
They cannot even explain why 1916 was 'justified' other than glib "they fought for our freedom from the British" nonsense.
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I kind of agree with that but I'd also say that the Shinner/IRA narrative ignored the previous century. They ignore the Vice President of the real (original) Sinn Fein, Fr. Michael O’Flanagan who, in an article in 1916, said that Ulster unionists were “not Irish in the national sense” and should be given the same right to decide their nationality as nationalists themselves. Lloyd George quoted his article in introducing the Government of Ireland Bill. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Partition-Ireland-Divided-1885-1925/dp/024130086X (source))
 
Purple said:
While the families of those who were killed are still alive it's not history and I don't think commemorations of said events are a good idea.
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I understand the sentiment, but there was no commemoration of the specific actions that Seamus McElwaine was involved in.
There was glib token reference to "he fought for our freedom", "brave volunteer" etc,. The commemoration was of his being, as a person. Regardless of what anyone thinks of McElwaine there is a family that mourns his passing also.

It was the media that choose, this year, to zone in on this commemoration that occurs every year. It is pot-stirring.
If Carty had called out for others to follow in McElwaines footsteps, if he had called out to rise up in arms, if he had identified specific attacks and glorified them, then I could understand the outrage. But he didnt.

If this commemoration should not be allowed, then any commemorations for the lives of any British soldiers that inflicted pain on innocent civilians in Ireland should not be commemorated.
Personally, I think that would be silly, and just lead to more aggravation for everyone. Which is what the media focus on Carty was about more than anything.
 
WolfeTone said:
If this commemoration should not be allowed, then any commemorations for the lives of any British soldiers that inflicted pain on innocent civilians in Ireland should not be commemorated.
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I used to Spend a good deal of time in the Seagate facility in Limavady (not the one in Derry). They had a policy of not allowing any flags or emblems to be displayed in offices, cars or clothes etc. If you had tattoos you had to cover them up. I think that would be a great idea for all of Northern Ireland. I'd happily apply the same rule here if it helped.
 

I know a bank up there that had a ban on football, rugby and GAA jerseys on dress down days for the same reason.

The rather depressing part about it was that if one my colleagues took me for a pint, we'd go to a certain well know nationalist pub. Our boss, a senior Orangeman, would take me to a different pub in a very different part of town if we went for a drink. I was always made very welcome in both. However if he was taking the team out for a drink, there was a "neutral" pub out the coast road which had no TV (so no arguements about matches) and that was where we used to go to as a team. That is all only 10 years ago.

There was also an unwritten rule that no-one from the South went up there for a meeting in July, "just in case!"
 
Peanuts20 said:
There was also an unwritten rule that no-one from the South went up there for a meeting in July, "just in case!"
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I recall doing a business thing up in Ballymena one time (doubt it was July though), and getting a few 'double takes' with my free state car reg.
 
Yea, a few of the villages with red white and blue painted curb stones and union jack bunting for most of the year are strange places. I always made a point of stopping in a shop whenever I drove into one. I was never made to feel unwelcome.
 
Purple said:
Yea, a few of the villages with red white and blue painted curb stones and union jack bunting for most of the year are strange places. I always made a point of stopping in a shop whenever I drove into one. I was never made to feel unwelcome.
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You're a bigger man than me so, was on hols in Fermanagh last year, a local village Kesh was festooned. I thought to myself, I'm not giving these [expletives] my money. Anywhere with paramilitary flegs, they can keep it. Maybe its a time of year thing but it seems to be fascination of one community only, I'd say I hardly spotted a tricolour and was in plenty places where that would be the fleg flown.
 
Purple said:
Yea, a few of the villages with red white and blue painted curb stones and union jack bunting for most of the year are strange places. I always made a point of stopping in a shop whenever I drove into one. I was never made to feel unwelcome.
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I remember walking back to digs on a trip to Belfast in mid 90s.
One side of kerb was painted union jack.
One side tricolour.
I walked on tricolour side as figured with my accent if I ran into any trouble best not to overthink it.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Donaldson is the best of a bad lot.
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I agree, but he has, like Foster, UUP DNA. So they won't go for that again.

I'm reading about Poots, he is full on bible-belt material. I feel the DUP are moving towards some need of some purification. There is a sense they have been sitting for too long, too close to the dirty Shinners and have become contaminted.
 
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