Duke of Marmalade
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Once again Young Betsy, I'm with you all the way.The point was that everything that could be realistically achieved had been achieved in Sunningdale, that's why GFA was dubbed Sunningdale for slow learners. Also, this was in the context of RA being on a rampage in '73 & '74, there was no question of a peace dividend for unionists, so the UWC strike was a relatively easy sell. If Provisional SF had done their gun bargaining in '73 instead of '98 they probably would have improved on Sunningdale and there was a fair chance it would have stuck - DUP opposed GFA too remember.
But PSF demanded a 32 county socialist republic, entirely on their terms, as is the PSF way it's just about what they want, not what voters want or would benefit society. All this dragging out of decommissioning eroded UUP, it suits PSF to be facing DUP, easier rally the sectarian headcount. So other than the silence of the guns we eventually got, I'm not sure what PSF has to offer beyond historical rewriting.
As for Dublin & Monaghan, collusion between Loyalists & elements of the security forces, it was the Omagh of its day, but neither event would be justification for 'armed struggle'. There's no justice or resolution, just more innocent blood. I've read Don Mullan's book on Dublin & Monaghan, the botched investigation and treatment of the families was (& is) a disgrace.
If Unionist had embraced Sunningdale didn't it have the potential to stabilise NI? (albeit with the RA on full output, only to a limited degree), whereas bringing it down meant all the cards up in the air again? I'm sure prisoner releases would have been a given if RA/PSF has been on board (esp. considering the interned weren't even convicted).so too was the stiff unionist resistance from all sections of that community. Here they had lost so much or perceived to have done so in such a short space of time and still it wasn't enough. And they too were apprehensive that one more shove would see Westminster push them off the ledge.
They elect a hardliner...Arlene is gone... what happens next?
A worse loon, that much is nailed on given the field.Arlene is gone... what happens next?
when the RA stopped it all stopped
I want the past left in the past so I've zero interest in lauding former gunmen and bombers
How are we going to move on if SF want to keep glorifying and trying to justify the dark deeds of yore
Garret (and frightened thinking people) be afraid of a British withdrawal
Given the atrocious behaviour of the British Army, as documented by yourself, was Garret Fitzgerald wrong and, with the benefit of hindsight of course, would we have been much better off if Harold Wilson had packed his bags in 1974?
In fact, in your opinion and again with the benefit of hindsight would it have been better if the BA had not intervened in the first place in 1969?
That is nigh eve beyond belief. I feel embarrassed for having engaged with you on this, I've had enough.Absolutely. The Irish Army in Nationalist areas would have been better. Or UN peace-keepers.
That is nigh eve beyond belief. I feel embarrassed for having engaged with you on this, I've had enough.
Okay, I'm back. Personally, being a young catholic on the ground in 1969, the arrival of British troops was an enormous relief. The catholic population were under attack from loyalist forces. The idea of Lynch's army invading Belfast to fight those forces is just unconscionable. Mind you Lynch did rattle his sabre, moving troops to the border, I suppose to appease CJH and his pals.Ok, I misconstrued. I was basing it on your hypothetical scenario of HW packing his bags (ie British withdrawal). I see you are asking on the basis of the non-hypothetical scenario.
There is no doubt that the BA deployment was a benefit for all at the outset. But it became quickly apparent, under the direction of RUC, that they were not a neutral force. Evidenced by their open brutality, and their sustained covert war for 20yrs and more.
Personally, being a young catholic on the ground in 1969, the arrival of British troops was an enormous relief. The catholic population were under attack from loyalist forces. The idea of Lynch's army invading Belfast to fight those forces is just unconscionable.
sure of course prisoner releases weren't part of Sunningdale since the Republican movement took no part - c'mon man
And it's not that the Brits wouldn't talk, they'd met t'lads at Cheyne Walk in London before then, only to be told 32 county socialist republic or nothing.
So the deal was there to be done
Put another way, was the extra 25 years of bloodshed worth it?
The British Government didn't try to criminalise and defeat the Republican movement. They, along with everyone else, criminalised and tried to defeat that minority which used terrorism to further their aims while co-opting the term "Republican Movement" to themselves.- British government were slow learners in thinking they could criminalise and defeat the Republican movement. They couldn't.
@WolfeTone you can keep your fantasy for all I care.
The British Government didn't try to criminalise and defeat the Republican movement. They, along with everyone else, criminalised and tried to defeat that minority which used terrorism to further their aims while co-opting the term "Republican Movement" to themselves.
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