"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

[WolfeTone]

In 1910 no women and only men who met the property qualification could vote. The total poll was just over 200,000 votes.

Interesting point. I will concede that 'fringe' sentiment for a Republic and full independence is an inapt description.
Let me say therefore that there was a significant underbelly of that sentiment for a Republic but as you point out it was not organised and as such remained effectively dormant. A sleeping dog so to speak.
It was the actions of Irish Unionists and the British government in usurping the Home Rule Act, that kicked the sleeping dog. The Suspensory Act, introduced on the same day to suspend Home Rule, on 18 September 1914. It was debated in House of Commons on 31st August 1914 and it was clear then that Home Rule parliament would be suspended to avoid "any controversial matter... to place any parties in worse position than before the War broke out" - Asquith, succumbing to Ulster Volunteers threats of violence, in my opinion.

Following this, on 5th September 1914 the IRB Supreme Council met and agreed to plan for a rebellion.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

In 1910 one year after the massive welcome on the streets of Dublin to the visit of Queen Victoria,

And no wonder the welcome was massive. QV died in 1901 and resurrections are rare enough.

 

[WolfeTone]

And no wonder the welcome was massive. QV died in 1901 and resurrections are rare enough.

Ooops!

 

[Purple]

So now the Papists outnumber the Prod's. Does it matter?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

So now the Papists outnumber the Prod's. Does it matter?

Tiocfaidh ár lá
"Lapsed" Prods would outnumber lapsed Taigs. A more relevant question would be "who do you support Celtic or Rangers?"

 

[Purple]

Tiocfaidh ár lá

More like "tá ár lá ag teacht"

 

[Leo]

So now the Papists outnumber the Prod's. Does it matter?

Unlikely with only 29.1% identifying as Irish-only (31.9% British-only, 19.8% Northern Irish-only, the rest some combination).

 

[Purple]

It looks like there's going to be an assembly election in Northern Ireland. It will change nothing. Neither the DUP or SF are honest players in this and both have shown their willingness to undermine democracy for their own ends. In the case of the DUP it's an existential threat to the existence of Northern Ireland. In the case of the Shinners it was having signs in Irish.

 

[cremeegg]

It looks like there's going to be an assembly election in Northern Ireland. It will change nothing. Neither the DUP or SF are honest players in this and both have shown their willingness to undermine democracy for their own ends. In the case of the DUP it's an existential threat to the existence of Northern Ireland. In the case of the Shinners it was having signs in Irish.

Actually I would suggest that both the DUP and SF are the honest players here.

The DUP says NO, it might be despicable but it is a long-standing, honest expression of their nature and their intentions.

SF want Brits out, they never suggest otherwise. They pursue that goal by whatever means they consider best suited to achieve their goal.

Alliance, SDLP and perhaps even the UUP may be more committed to seeking solutions which can gain broad support, but to a greater or lesser extent they all seek to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

IIRC SF walked away from the Assembly over the Ash for Cash scandal and specifically Arlene Foster's role and position as FM, and their issue over Irish was not that signs were not in Irish but that the Irish Language legislation which was specifically committed to was not introduced.

Collapsing the Assembly because you can't get what you want is not the same thing as collapsing the Assembly because your counterparts will not keep to agreements they enter into. The inspiration for the UK govt legislating to override the protocol the negotiated with the EU perhaps.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The natural border between Ireland and the UK is the land border just as it was up until Ireland and the UK joined the EEC. Is there anywhere else on the planet that has a trade border in its own jurisdiction? Unionists have been shafted for sure because Leo’s threats of border posts being blown up trumped a few loyalist teenagers having a riot.

 

[Purple]

Actually I would suggest that both the DUP and SF are the honest players here.

The DUP says NO, it might be despicable but it is a long-standing, honest expression of their nature and their intentions.

SF want Brits out, they never suggest otherwise. They pursue that goal by whatever means they consider best suited to achieve their goal.

Have the DUP or SF ever been honest about anything?
Both had links to terrorists, one was/is run by the same people who used to run/still run that terrorist organisation.
That trumps their duplicitous public utterances about policy and objectives.

Alliance, SDLP and perhaps even the UUP may be more committed to seeking solutions which can gain broad support, but to a greater or lesser extent they all seek to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

Both are honest and committed to peace. They are really democratic, unlike the DUP and SF.

IIRC SF walked away from the Assembly over the Ash for Cash scandal and specifically Arlene Foster's role and position as FM, and their issue over Irish was not that signs were not in Irish but that the Irish Language legislation which was specifically committed to was not introduced.

There's lots of legislation that is committed to and ignored. If the DUP can get over the Shinner's links to terrorism and criminality then the Shinners should be able to get over the Cash for Ash debacle.

Collapsing the Assembly because you can't get what you want is not the same thing as collapsing the Assembly because your counterparts will not keep to agreements they enter into. The inspiration for the UK govt legislating to override the protocol the negotiated with the EU perhaps.

The DUP collapsed the Assembly because they were complete and utter idiots when they supported Brexit and believed the Tories. They are now in a position where there is a real threat to the existence of the Union with Britain because of Brexit and they know that. Their problems are of their own making but they are real and the threat to the Union is real. They collapsed the Assembly because of an existential threat to their identity, not just because they didn't get what they want.

 

[Purple]

The natural border between Ireland and the UK is the land border just as it was up until Ireland and the UK joined the EEC. Is there anywhere else on the planet that has a trade border in its own jurisdiction?

And we accepted that border when we joined the UN and again when we joined the EEC.

Unionists have been shafted for sure because Leo’s threats of border posts being blown up trumped a few loyalist teenagers having a riot.

They have been shafted by themselves due to their staggering political ineptitude and complete misreading of their own place in the world. Leo's comments about border posts being blown up were of no consequence one way or the other.
The Unionism of the DUP is an anachronistic embarrassment to the vast majority of the minority of British people who spare it a thought. They are like some weird relation who dresses in Victorian clothing and keeps turning up at family events. The irony is that the only family members who are willing to put up with them are us.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

They have been shafted by themselves due to their staggering political ineptitude and complete misreading of their own place in the world. Leo's comments about border posts being blown up were of no consequence one way or the other.

I was citing Leo's comments more as a proxy for the overwhelming pan nationalist strategy on Brexit. It got to the stage were even Greek peasants became aware of the GFA. And it meant only one thing to continental Europeans - a hard border in Ireland means a return to IRA violence and comments from Simon Varadkar were thinly veiled indications that they believed the IRA would be right to so react,
Nobody seemed to understand that the GFA was meant to be a two way thing - unionists would be guaranteed no change in the constitutional position of NI within the UK. The unique and grotesque NI protocol's internal sea border is a grosser affront to the GFA than a land border ever would have been.
Opposition to the protocol is almost universal amongst NI unionists and is not the preserve of the creationists.
Having said that, the refusal to enter government has nothing to do with the protocol and is simply that they can't stomach having a Taig on top.

 

[cremeegg]

Nobody seemed to understand that the GFA was meant to be a two way thing - unionists would be guaranteed no change in the constitutional position of NI within the UK.

Really, I thought there was something in there about a border poll. must be my mistake.

The unique and grotesque NI protocol's internal sea border is a grosser affront to the GFA than a land border ever would have been.

How could additional airport checks be a 'grosser affront' than border posts on the way to school or work. You really are completely out of touch.

Opposition to the protocol is almost universal amongst NI unionists and is not the preserve of the creationists.

Unionists were in favour of the protocol before they were against it. The DUP recognised the unique advantages it gave NI being able to trade freely with the EU and UK. They suddenly they realised it could be better used as a goad to rile up their more excitable supporters. Their opposition to the Protocol is entirely cynical posturing.

Having said that, the refusal to enter government has nothing to do with the protocol and is simply that they can't stomach having a Taig on top.

Indeed.

 

[Purple]

They suddenly they realised it could be better used as a goad to rile up their more excitable supporters. Their opposition to the Protocol is entirely cynical posturing.

I think they realised that countries that are economically aligned usually become politically aligned. To stay in the Union NI needs to have more trade with Britain than it does with Ireland because the bottom line is it's mostly about economics for the majority.

 

[Purple]

Really, I thought there was something in there about a border poll. must be my mistake.

But there was no border poll before the border was moved. Unionism is fighting against the dying of the light. They will lose, the only question is when. That must be very hard to deal with.

 

[Purple]

I was citing Leo's comments more as a proxy for the overwhelming pan nationalist strategy on Brexit. It got to the stage were even Greek peasants became aware of the GFA. And it meant only one thing to continental Europeans - a hard border in Ireland means a return to IRA violence and comments from Simon Varadkar were thinly veiled indications that they believed the IRA would be right to so react,

I disagree with you there. I think there was a fair bit of histrionics from the usual suspects when those comments were made.

Nobody seemed to understand that the GFA was meant to be a two way thing - unionists would be guaranteed no change in the constitutional position of NI within the UK. The unique and grotesque NI protocol's internal sea border is a grosser affront to the GFA than a land border ever would have been.

I also disagree there. Having customs checks is not the same as having people checks. When the British Government, with the support of the DUP, left the EU they changed the constitutional position of NI within the UK so, as they say in school yards, they started it.

Opposition to the protocol is almost universal amongst NI unionists and is not the preserve of the creationists.

Less than 12% of Unionists said it was a priority before the last elections.

Having said that, the refusal to enter government has nothing to do with the protocol and is simply that they can't stomach having a Taig on top.

Just like the Shinners throwing their toys out of the pram had nothing to do with Cash for Ash or the Irish Language Act. Neither the DUP or SF are really democrats, neither are honest brokers.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I also disagree there. Having customs checks is not the same as having people checks.

Well yes, I agree that sea borders are less intrusive than land borders e.g. US/Ireland vs US/Mexico. I think this aspect fed a wishful thinking on the likes of Boris that they might get away with the grotesque idea of a trade border in the same country. If there wasn't such sensitivity around constitutional issues in NI, they might have, might still, got away with it. It remains that this bizarre construct is a much greater affront to the GFA than reinstating the trade borders between Éire and NI which I grew up with. The threat of republican violence was openly referred to by the likes of continental and US leaders. Terrorism can win.

When the British Government, with the support of the DUP, left the EU they changed the constitutional position of NI within the UK so, as they say in school yards, they started it.

I agree with the swipe at the creationists. But I don't understand the second point. I agree that the constitutional position of NI has been changed by agreement of the British Government, though I think the courts in Belfast have rejected this. So yes, the BG are primarily to blame. So by "they started it" do you mean by "they" the combination of the unionists and the BG?

 

[Purple]

Well yes, I agree that sea borders are less intrusive than land borders e.g. US/Ireland vs US/Mexico. I think this aspect fed a wishful thinking on the likes of Boris that they might get away with the grotesque idea of a trade border in the same country. If there wasn't such sensitivity around constitutional issues in NI, they might have, might still, got away with it.

Boris and the English Nationalists who owned the Bandwagon he jumped onto didn't give the "Oirish" a second thought. That's what the DUP don't get; we're all the same to them.

It remains that this bizarre construct is a much greater affront to the GFA than reinstating the trade borders between Éire and NI which I grew up with. The threat of republican violence was openly referred to by the likes of continental and US leaders. Terrorism can win.

Since we are speaking in English the name of this country is Ireland, not Éire. The Republic of Ireland is the name of aa football team, not a country. This is a country, not a jurisdiction. The British Isles is not a place and Ireland certainly isn't part of it. The GFA cleared all that up too.

I agree with the swipe at the creationists. But I don't understand the second point. I agree that the constitutional position of NI has been changed by agreement of the British Government, though I think the courts in Belfast have rejected this. So yes, the BG are primarily to blame. So by "they started it" do you mean by "they" the combination of the unionists and the BG?

Yes, the GFA is underpinned by the EU and the ECJ. In that it is a Constitutional Document in the UK. The Brits chose to ignore that but by any reasonable standard it is. Therefore Brexit and the removal of the UK from the jurisdiction of the ECJ altered the UK's Constitution.
The Protocol and everything else that followed is an an impossible attempt to square that circle. I said on this forum when Brexit was first proposed that if it happened a hard border between Ireland and the UK was inevitable. What we have has since is an attempt to avoid that inevitability.

 

[cremeegg]

I said on this forum when Brexit was first proposed that if it happened a hard border between Ireland and the UK was inevitable. What we have has since is an attempt to avoid that inevitability.

This is the heart of the matter. I would not go so far as 'inevitable' but certainly really difficult to avoid.

When the UK's exit agreement with the EU was being negotiated the EU agreed to make this issue one of 3 fundamental issues, huge success for Irish diplomacy. The Therese May nearly agreed a solution involving the entire UK, that would have worked but the DUP stopped her. Boris with his majority agreed a NI only solution, the DUP don't want that either, not because its bad economics, but because they can make political hay opposing it.