Don't be silly Duke, you know only too well that if your family, or community comes under violent attack that there will be some who will want to extract revenge. And no amount of pleading for peace and calm will stop it, regrettably.
"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement
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Don't be silly Duke, you know only too well that if your family, or community comes under violent attack that there will be some who will want to extract revenge. And no amount of pleading for peace and calm will stop it, regrettably.
No doubt about it, but had loyalists been prepared to let it work it may have had the cause of disarming the underbelly community support for IRA.
Certainly, prior to CRM the vast bulk of northern nationalists were not aiming for a resurgent IRA. They wanted social and economic order with sound policing content within the UK with Irish government acting as some sort of guardian. The IRA was an also-ran.
How did unionism and British government manage to cock things up so much that it drove many nationalist communities back to supporting to the IRA?
Can you answer me that?
Personally I put it down to the Brighton bomb myself. She may have shown steely resolve but her "that is out, out, out" message to Irish government shortly before the attack, became the Anglo Irish Agreement within a year after the attack.
It may also be worth noting, according to journalist Peter Taylor, that within a year of the shooting of Adams, the words 'peace process' were to appear on SF literature for the first time.
Duke of Marmalade
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And yet you don't seem to allow this "human nature" defence to British soldiers who a couple of days after their mate has been murdered are asked to police a crowd who would wallow in that murder and pull them from limb to limb if they only got the chance as they subsequently did in Andersonstown. But I guess you hold British soldiers to be sub human and therefore not entitled to the defence of "human nature".
For avoidance of doubt I am not in any way excusing what some British soldiers did on Bloody Sunday as you seem to be excusing the Kingsmills massacre.
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@Duke of Marmalade I can only assume that you are so entrenched in your views that you are blinded to any commentary that does sit with your ingrained views. Somehow I'm excusing the Kingsmill massacre but you conveniently leave out the O'Dowd and Reavey massacres - was i excusing that too?
The O'Dowds, active members of the SDLP, excuted for the heinous crime of being moderate Nationalists.
From wiki
The shootings were part of a string of attacks on Catholics and Irish nationalists by the "Glenanne gang"; an alliance of loyalist militants, British soldiers and Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) police officers. Billy McCaughey, a police officer from the RUC Special Patrol Group, admitted taking part and accused another officer of being involved.[2] His colleague John Weir said that those involved included a British soldier, two police officers and an alleged police agent: Robin 'the Jackal' Jackson.
Yeh, it was just the 'Ra that was waging the war. Give me a break.
I have no doubt at all that BA soldiers would want to extract revenge killing, they are after all paid professionals trained to kill.
It doesn't make it right though does it?
And should someone licensed by the State to carry loaded weapons not bear some responsibility for their actions if it results in a deliberate death?
What you seem to be advocating for is for this amnesty that is proposed by the Tories. That is your perogative, I'm against it, that's mine.
I stand with the broad political consensus in Ireland, North and South, orange and green, you stand with 'unsung heros' Maggie and the Tories.
I get that now.
Duke of Marmalade
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You claim I misrepresent you. Well this very clearly misrepresents me. I am with the only consistent party on this theme, the DUP*. I was against the moral squalor of the GFA and I am against nods and winks and letters to "on the runs" and I am against any amnesty.
I am questioning your perspective which seems to see the amnesty for Soldier F 50 years later as a war crime of holocaust proportions (not quite holocaust but in that litany of British war crimes that you drag along with you.)
On a separate point I note that SF are also in your "bad" books. I also note the requirements to get your vote. Considering the few remaining candidates not in your bad books who meet your requirements I get dangerously close to the.......Green Party
Get on yer bike!* For avoidance of doubt I generally do not support the DUP. I think their views on creationism are questionable.
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Well if we are in the field of misrepresentation then surely we can have no better example than this exaggeration, a tendency of yours when anyone dare question the decisions of authority.
As it transpires we both share the same view when it comes to this amnesty, yet I'm the one crying 'holocaust'? I don't think so.
As a side, I was never in favour of prisoner releases either but I accepted it was part of the agreement. It was negotiated up front and it was ultimately endorsed by the people.
I have already agreed with the hypocritical stance of SF with regard OTR's, but it's the grubby nature of how the British government went about this business that I object to.
Ditto the manner in which this amnesty is being driven. If an amnesty had been agreed through open political dialogue and negotiation I might still disagree with it, but I would accept it.
What Tories are doing now is an affront to victims, and a slap in the face to the political institutions and agreements still in place.
There is only one reason for this, to continue to cover up the extent of the British State involvement in its covert dirty war in Ireland.
As for the Greens, they are an option but their track record in actively pursuing an end to partition is negligible. They also have a poor record when in power for their social and economic policies relative to their stated position. Still, probably get a no2 here.
Duke of Marmalade
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Wolfie that neatly sums up your position. Ultimately all blame points back to the British. You might argue that others have the same syndrome with regards to SF.
In fact one could even argue that Mother Therése is to blame. Less time in Calcutta and more in Belfast and we might have been spared all this.
I challenge you to implicate Mr. Tayto.
I don't see how you have come to that conclusion other it your blinded ingrained perspective.
I don't know but I think in that last quote I am critical of SF for their role in the affair?
Perhaps if you read a bit further back you can pick up on my criticisms of our nations hero's GOIRA and 1916? Heck I'm sure I've pointed out the sheer hypocrisy of glorifying a indiscriminate bomber like Thomas Clarke while condemning an indiscriminate bomber like Thomas Begley.
That's the difference Duke, I recognise the atrocities of PIRA for what they were, Kingsmill, Claudy, Warrington, Mullaghmore, Enniskillen etc criminal acts.
But I also recognise the criminal acts of the British government. They are big boys and girls Duke, you shouldnt have to hide behind the atrocities of PIRA as an excuse for the gunning down unarmed 15yr old boys and slaughtering families of O'Dowd and Reavey.
And the proclaimers of law and order, justice and democracy are still at the bare-faced cover up of their own crimes.
And some worry about the Shinners ever getting into power!
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Got it! Your No 1 goes to People before Logic. That is a harmless bit of virtue signalling to yourself and TheBigShort, won't ever come to anything. But your No 2 - now that is dangerous, those nutters can and do get into power.
Don't get your point here. Clearly you were not excusing the latter. But you were contextualising the former. Heck you went as far as to ask what can you expect? that's just human nature. That is excusing in my book.theo said:
Of course that's what Truth and Reconciliation will involve, contextualising every atrocity, even the Brits will be at it, pointless exercise.
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Here, let me do some more 'contextualising'.
IRA explodes a bomb in a Fish shop on Shankill.
Does that excuse subsequent reprisals of 14 Catholic civilians being murdered in the following week? No.
But were the reprisals to be expected?
Here is what journalist Peter Taylor recorded leading loyalist Billy McQuiston saying
"anybody on the Shankill Road that day, from a Boy Scout to a granny, if you'd given them a gun they would have gone out and retaliated".
I don't think you are giving my theory of 'human nature' enough consideration Duke. I think I may be onto something here.
Albeit you do appear to have empathy for the British squaddies who lost their comrades and let loose on Bloody Sunday.
Duke of Marmalade
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@WolfeTone I don't think you have a future on the after dinner speech circuit. "GOIRA every bit as bad as PIRA, Michael D a hypocrite, Kingsmills a perfectly understandable human nature response." Even the shinners would give faux boos at that last one.
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The GOIRA regarded the government of this country, our Judges, our Police force (RIC) and our Army (British Army, Irish Battalions) as legitimate targets. Their political wings have never disavowed that position and now they run the country...
When their members murdered our police and our Army they considered the murderers to be heroes...
It's the same story @Purple. I don't expect I will convince you, decades of proscribed propaganda is a hard shift.
I missed this bit.
I got to watch my 10yr old son dress up in a re-enactment of this suicide mission during the 100yr old commemorations.
His class were dressed up in military regalia and commoner tweed flat caps and jackets.
They were armed with individual imitation pistols and organised to pose in military stance by their school teacher.
Then, one unfortunate soul was selected to read the Proclaimation from the steps of the 'GPO'. A good reader no doubt, and the collective of adoring parents clap-happy as this suicide ritual of abject failure was read out. They hoisted the flag and the uileann pipes were played as the Headmaster read a poignant message from our President underpinning the righteousness of this suicide mission.
Duke of Marmalade
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One of the reasons I am against an amnesty for British soldiers is that I think it pays a huge disservice to the thousands of British soldiers that risked their lives and the 1,100 that gave their lives to keep us Paddies from tearing each other limb from limb. It suggests internationally that they all need an amnesty.
@WolfeTone I know you like to challenge conventional wisdom on the rights and wrongs of our troubled past but excusing Kingsmills as understandable human nature is a step too far.
@WolfeTone I know you like to challenge conventional wisdom on the rights and wrongs of our troubled past but excusing Kingsmills as understandable human nature is a step too far.
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@Duke of Marmalade your diversionary tactics are admirable, but I made no such excuse for Kingsmill, as I said on July 20, 2020
It's clear you attempting to goad at this point. It reinforces my belief that some, including yourself, do place a hierarchy on victims. Your repeated reference to Kingsmill while trying to divert from O'Dowd/Reavey. I note you now pay homage to the British soldiers that took part in those attacks.
I estimate the British Army, in their impartial peace-keeping role, had overtly killed up near 100 mostly Catholic civilians by 1976. It is the covert operations that don't tally in the official figures. We know their involvement in O'Dowd/Reavey, Miami Showband and the 'Glenanne Gang' in general.
Perhaps these were just some rogue officers, afflicted by my theory of human nature, reacting adversely to the deaths of their own comrades from IRA? Its hard to imagine how such rogue officers would remain at large without the cover of higher authorities. The consistent refusal of our dear neighbour and friend to assist our investigating officers into mass atrocities Dublin/Monaghan is a bit of a giveaway.
Two points,
First, there is sometimes a tendency to relate to events of the revolutionary period of 100yrs ago as a having some sort different set of values and morals.
When it comes to the crime of murder there is no difference between 100yrs ago and today. So I squirm somewhat when I hear the "that was a different time" excuse that is oft peddled to justify murderous atrocities.
The Stanley affair is a classic example - the outrage, the horror, the disdain of the righteous towards the IRA attack on BA at Warrenpoint, compared with the absolute silence from same of the savagery of the IRA attack at Kilmichael.
"Local Coroner Dr Jeremiah Kelleher told the military Court of Inquiry at Macroom on 30 November 1920 that he carried out a "superfical examination" on the bodies. He found that one of the dead, named Pallister, had a "wound ... inflicted after death by an axe or some similar heavy weapon". He stated that three suffered shotgun wounds at close range. The subsequently publicised term 'butchered' was derived from a military witness, Lieut. H.G. Hampshire, who said, "From my experience as a soldier I should imagine that about four had been killed instantaneously and the others butchered"
Our hero's!
Not one of the morally righteous of our national commemtariat could bring themselves to reference Kilmichael, it was all about Warrenpoint. Just as to you, the conflict was all about atrocities like Kingsmill. The slaughter of innocent civilians, members of the SDLP, by British agents is to be whitewashed.
How many innocent civilians did the BA had to kill before it was accepted that they were here for our own good?
Second point, to which I probably owe you a debt of gratitude, genuinely.
You wrote...
On the contrary, once again, I have little doubt that fallen comrades invoke no less the same emotions in army personnel as much as civilians. I would expect, that as a professional soldier, those emotions to be kept in check.
I use https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1972.html as a great resource for understanding matters relating to the conflict.
As it happens, 15 people died from violent attack on Bloody Sunday. I was not aware of this until now.
Robin Alers-Hankey, a British soldier died that day 4 months after being shot by IRA sniper.
He was based in Derry.
Would news of his death, a soldier based in Derry, have affected the emotions of BA personnel that day?
It's not implausible to think that emotions were high within the ranks of BA in Derry that day, is it?
Human nature Duke, human nature.
It's clear you attempting to goad at this point. It reinforces my belief that some, including yourself, do place a hierarchy on victims. Your repeated reference to Kingsmill while trying to divert from O'Dowd/Reavey. I note you now pay homage to the British soldiers that took part in those attacks.
I estimate the British Army, in their impartial peace-keeping role, had overtly killed up near 100 mostly Catholic civilians by 1976. It is the covert operations that don't tally in the official figures. We know their involvement in O'Dowd/Reavey, Miami Showband and the 'Glenanne Gang' in general.
Perhaps these were just some rogue officers, afflicted by my theory of human nature, reacting adversely to the deaths of their own comrades from IRA? Its hard to imagine how such rogue officers would remain at large without the cover of higher authorities. The consistent refusal of our dear neighbour and friend to assist our investigating officers into mass atrocities Dublin/Monaghan is a bit of a giveaway.
Two points,
First, there is sometimes a tendency to relate to events of the revolutionary period of 100yrs ago as a having some sort different set of values and morals.
When it comes to the crime of murder there is no difference between 100yrs ago and today. So I squirm somewhat when I hear the "that was a different time" excuse that is oft peddled to justify murderous atrocities.
The Stanley affair is a classic example - the outrage, the horror, the disdain of the righteous towards the IRA attack on BA at Warrenpoint, compared with the absolute silence from same of the savagery of the IRA attack at Kilmichael.
"Local Coroner Dr Jeremiah Kelleher told the military Court of Inquiry at Macroom on 30 November 1920 that he carried out a "superfical examination" on the bodies. He found that one of the dead, named Pallister, had a "wound ... inflicted after death by an axe or some similar heavy weapon". He stated that three suffered shotgun wounds at close range. The subsequently publicised term 'butchered' was derived from a military witness, Lieut. H.G. Hampshire, who said, "From my experience as a soldier I should imagine that about four had been killed instantaneously and the others butchered"
Our hero's!
Not one of the morally righteous of our national commemtariat could bring themselves to reference Kilmichael, it was all about Warrenpoint. Just as to you, the conflict was all about atrocities like Kingsmill. The slaughter of innocent civilians, members of the SDLP, by British agents is to be whitewashed.
How many innocent civilians did the BA had to kill before it was accepted that they were here for our own good?
Second point, to which I probably owe you a debt of gratitude, genuinely.
You wrote...
On the contrary, once again, I have little doubt that fallen comrades invoke no less the same emotions in army personnel as much as civilians. I would expect, that as a professional soldier, those emotions to be kept in check.
I use https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1972.html as a great resource for understanding matters relating to the conflict.
As it happens, 15 people died from violent attack on Bloody Sunday. I was not aware of this until now.
Robin Alers-Hankey, a British soldier died that day 4 months after being shot by IRA sniper.
He was based in Derry.
Would news of his death, a soldier based in Derry, have affected the emotions of BA personnel that day?
It's not implausible to think that emotions were high within the ranks of BA in Derry that day, is it?
Human nature Duke, human nature.
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Duke of Marmalade
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Well it's not, so I would ask you to retract the inference that I give any excuse for a mass criminal act such as Kingsmill.
Duke of Marmalade
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I will not retract.
That's big of you.
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