"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

[WolfeTone]

Jonathan Dowdall

Dowdall resigned from SF in 2015 as soon as it was suspected that he was in involved in criminal activity. He jumped before he was pushed.

 

[Purple]

Dowdall resigned from SF in 2015 as soon as it was suspected that he was in involved in criminal activity. He jumped before he was pushed.

Exactly... kind of. To me it looks like his offence was that his criminality became public.

 

[WolfeTone]

To me it looks like his offence was that his criminality became public.

Yeh, like I said, once it became known. The only other aspersion is that SF leadership knew all along that he was engaged in criminal activity but turned a blind eye?

I think that is preposterous notion at this point. That MLMcD and prominent TD's such as Pearse Doherty, Eoin O Brion, Louise O'Reilly, et al would want to jeopordise their political standing in this country by turning a blind eye, or covertly supporting such activity.

It is in the realm of Harris paranoia at this stage. The truth of the matter is SF's 'sinister' activities amount to dubious polling data tricks, which as it turns other political parties engage in also.

 

[Purple]

I think that is preposterous notion at this point. That MLMcD and prominent TD's such as Pearse Doherty, Eoin O Brion, Louise O'Reilly, et al would want to jeopordise their political standing in this country by turning a blind eye, or covertly supporting such activity.

That assumes that they are really running things or that the problem isn't so endemic within the ranks of the party activists that they simply can't fix it.

If I was in a pub and got into a discussion with an FF, FG, Labour, Solidarity or other party member I'd be happy to have a frank exchange of views. If it was a SF member I'd be far more cautious as a family member was beaten up shortly after such a discussion. He also had his car vandalised. Admittedly it was 7-8 years ago but all the same players were fronting the Party then.

 

[WolfeTone]

If it was a SF member

I was physically assaulted by a drunken Labour Party member. My crime? For suggesting the murder of Constable James O'Brien by ICA in 1916 was a war crime.
Admittedly the 'assault' was nothing more than handbags, but the intent was certainly there.

 

[Purple]

I was physically assaulted by a drunken Labour Party member. My crime? For suggesting the murder of Constable James O'Brien by ICA in 1916 was a war crime.
Admittedly the 'assault' was nothing more than handbags, but the intent was certainly there.

There was more than one person involved in the assault of my family member. The smashed windows and paint poured into the car was a few days later. The person who stopped him in the street and asked him if he'd learned his lesson was a not one of the people in the pub.

 

[WolfeTone]

He also had his car vandalised.

I'm not denying there was a thuggish element to SF. But I don't think it's fair to say that is the case now.
SF north and south combined, is the largest party in the country.
One of the most important factors of the GFA, which I don't think is given enough attention, is that for the first time in Irelands history the 'right' to assert self-determination is by exclusively peaceful and democratic means only. The people have spoken, whatever our differences the gun has no place anymore.
And with that, any sort of criminal enterprise.

 

[Purple]

One of the most important factors of the GFA, which I don't think is given enough attention, is that for the first time in Irelands history the 'right' to assert self-determination is by exclusively peaceful and democratic means only. The people have spoken, whatever our differences the gun has no place anymore.

I agree with you and I acknowledge SF?IRA's role in that.

And with that, any sort of criminal enterprise.

In my view the IRA is no longer a criminal organisation, it is now exclusively a criminal organisation. The issue is what influence, what control, they have over SF and how much they will access sensitive information and influence decision making when SF are in government.
I simply don't believe that there is blue water between SF and the IRA.

 

[WolfeTone]

it is now exclusively a criminal organisation

That goes against the opinion of Garda Commissioner and Chief Constable of PSNI in whose opinion IRA (as associated with SF) are engaged in "wholly political activity".

 

[Purple]

That goes against the opinion of Garda Commissioner and Chief Constable of PSNI in whose opinion IRA (as associated with SF) are engaged in "wholly political activity".

They were talking in the context of terrorism.

 

[WolfeTone]

They were talking in the context of terrorism.

No they were not. Otherwise they would have said something like "partially political and partially criminal activity". They did not, they said "wholly political".
"Wholly" being the substantive word here, meaning, entirely.

 

[Purple]

No they were not. Otherwise they would have said something like "partially political and partially criminal activity". They did not, they said "wholly political".
"Wholly" being the substantive word here, meaning, entirely.

That's your view and you're entitled to it.

 

[Betsy Og]

The person who stopped him in the street and asked him if he'd learned his lesson was a not one of the people in the pub.

Has the leopard changed its spots?, if we get through a few years without bullying allegations etc then maybe, but I don't think we're there yet. Also, if they bully their own, what hope for the rest of us, or the justice system. That'll be the real test, will they run with the hare and hunt with the hounds??

 

[Purple]

Has the leopard changed its spots?, if we get through a few years without bullying allegations etc then maybe, but I don't think we're there yet. Also, if they bully their own, what hope for the rest of us, or the justice system. That'll be the real test, will they run with the hare and hunt with the hounds??

Or, for me, it's a case of will they stop running with the hare and hunting with the hounds when they become the hunt masters.

 

[WolfeTone]

Has the leopard changed its spots?,

Irelands political spectrum is synonymous with party formation out of thuggery. FF, FG, Labour, all have their histories of jackboot politics.
The transition into democratic political parties is similar to the transition SF have made.
One significant difference, SF are doing it on the back of the Irish people north and south endorsing the principle of self-determination through exclusively peaceful and democratic means. Meaning whatever our differences, violent insurrection is now accepted as a redundant, or more precise, having no basis in legitimacy. Something like 1916 can never be tolerated or justified again, as long as the principle of self-determination and exclusively peaceful and democratic paths remain open.

The biggest threat to this is not SF but Ulster unionism flirting with masked paramilitaries once again.

 

[Betsy Og]

Wolfie, I'm not fearing the RA starting up again, just that SF are laced with scumbags and there'll be no talking to them if they get into power. Anyway, maybe the snowflakes need a dose of that to come to their senses.

 

[Purple]

Wolfie, I'm not fearing the RA starting up again, just that SF are laced with scumbags and there'll be no talking to them if they get into power. Anyway, maybe the snowflakes need a dose of that to come to their senses.

Exactly. I don't think they are terrorists. I think they are criminals.

 

[WolfeTone]

just that SF are laced with scumbags and there'll be no talking to them if they get into power.

I suppose depending on what your definition of a 'scumbag' is you could plausibily say that all political parties are laced with them. Certainly the drunken Labour Party member that assualted me, I would contest falls into the 'scumbag' territory.

I think they are criminals.

Whatever evidence of criminality you have you should forward it onto the Gardai, they appear to have little these days.

 

[Purple]

Whatever evidence of criminality you have you should forward it onto the Gardai, they appear to have little these days.

Right, because conversations in the canteen stand up in court and the guys who live on the same street as the Shinner activist will be happy to make a statement to the police.
I get that you are a SF supporter, possibly as activist. If they were all like you I'd be happy but it's my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence, that a significant proportion aren't. I've frequently described SF and 1970's FF; populist, pseudo-socialist, self serving, more than happy to bend or break the rules and having an excellent community infrastructure.

 

[WolfeTone]

Right, because conversations in the canteen stand up in court and the guys who live on the same street as the Shinner activist will be happy to make a statement to the police.

I'm not sure what you are talking about, I was assaulted in a pub by a drunken scumbag member of the Irish Labour Party.