Banks using Private Investigators...Data Comissioner Investigating

No I am not. I have gone through chapter 13 bankruptcy. Depending on your financials, this usually entails the creditors taking a hit of between 30% and 60% on the outstanding debt. You then enter a pay plan with the creditors of between 3 to 5 years. You are then clear. You can continue to trade during this period, if you own a company, you can have company bank accounts etc.
 
Gordon Gekko said:
This is a very interesting thread.

We as a nation seem overly sympathetic towards debtors.

In the US, the "victims" of PIs would be branded "deadbeats" and receive zero sympathy.
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Are you kidding me, in the US, debtors have many more options that are not available in their Country. The US system is very forgiving of debtors.
 
I am fully aware of what a Chapter 13 bankruptcy entails - it is broadly comparable to a personal insolvency arrangement here

You suggested that all mortgages are non-recourse in the US. Untrue.

You then implied that in non-recourse States being "judgment proof" achieves the same thing. Again, untrue.
 
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Sarenco said:
I am fully aware of what a Chapter 13 bankruptcy entails - it is broadly comparable to a personal insolvency arrangement here


Very broadly comparable, a bit like comparing edam and stilton cheese ( both are cheeses, but one certainly leaves you with a sharp taste in your mouth ). At least the bankruptcy term has been reduced to 1 year, that is a move in the right direction. However, we have a long way to go, to be akin to the American model and how it deals with it's debtors. In America, most large companies take out insurance against bad debts, why not here.
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Yes, broadly comparable in that a PIA, like a Chapter 13 bankruptcy, provides a mechanism for the reduction of debt outside of bankruptcy (or a Chapter 7 bankruptcy in the US).

A PIA provides for the agreed settlement and/or restructuring of debts in the case of people who have secured debts up to a total of €3 million (as well as any unsecured debts) and have no prospect of being able to pay off their debts in the next 5 years.

Compared to the US, Ireland has an extremely lenient attitude to home loan defaulters. Have you ever studied the foreclosure statistics in non-recourse States such as California and Nevada? They really don't hang around.

And what gives you the impression that Irish companies don't carry credit insurance?
 
Sarenco said:
Yes, broadly comparable in that a PIA, like a Chapter 13 bankruptcy, provides a mechanism for the reduction of debt outside of bankruptcy (or a Chapter 7 bankruptcy in the US).

A PIA provides for the agreed settlement and/or restructuring of debts in the case of people who have secured debts up to a total of €3 million (as well as any unsecured debts) and have no prospect of being able to pay off their debts in the next 5 years.

Compared to the US, Ireland has an extremely lenient attitude to home loan defaulters. Have you ever studied the foreclosure statistics in non-recourse States such as California and Nevada? They really don't hang around.

And what gives you the impression that Irish companies don't carry credit insurance?
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Can you provide me with any stats on how many Irish companies carry adequate credit insurance with respect to their credit risk exposure.
 
HelpingHand said:
Can you provide me with any stats on how many Irish companies carry adequate credit insurance with respect to their credit risk exposure.
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Table 19 of the Central Bank's Insurance Statistical Review (known as the "Blue Book") will show you how much credit insurance was written in Ireland in any given year.

Anyway, what does that have to do with the respective legal mechanisms available to resolve debts in Ireland and the US?
 
Sarenco said:
Table 19 of the Central Bank's Insurance Statistical Review (known as the "Blue Book") will show you how much credit insurance was written in Ireland in any given year.

Anyway, what does that have to do with the respective legal mechanisms available to resolve debts in Ireland and the US?
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You are the person who asked the question about credit insurance, I know the Irish Banks certainly did not have adequate cover and the State, through the taxpayer, bailed them out.

Do not attempt to argue that the Irish system of debt management and enforcement is in any way as sophisticated as that of the USA. The troika had to bend the arm of Government to update the laws on debt enforcement. It was not all that long ago, where you could be imprisoned in this Country for not paying a relatively small debt. The Irish State was dragged kicking and screaming from its dickension model of debt enforcement into the modern age.
 
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Debtors Act 1840, 1872 were still being applied by the courts until relatively recently.
 
No, you raised the issue of credit insurance although I have no idea what it has to do with any debt resolution mechanism.

I made no attempt to suggest that our debt resolution mechanisms are appropriate or sufficient and I have been fully supportive of the campaign to reduce the bankruptcy period.

I was simply correcting your misrepresentations of the legal position in the US and I note that you have not had the good grace to acknowledge your errors.

To suggest that the US takes a more lenient approach to debt defaulters is, frankly, risible.
 
Sarenco said:
No, you raised the issue of credit insurance although I have no idea what it has to do with any debt resolution mechanism.

I made no attempt to suggest that our debt resolution mechanisms are appropriate or sufficient and I have been fully supportive of the campaign to reduce the bankruptcy period.

I was simply correcting your misrepresentations of the legal position in the US and I note that you have not had the good grace to acknowledge your errors.

To suggest that the US takes a more lenient approach to debt defaulters is, frankly, risible.
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I suppose that's the reason why David Drumm, CEO of Anglo Irish Bank, went to the States. Frankly, your talking out of an orifice that is not your mouth. Go and take some proper legal advice. Your postulations are WRONG and serve to misinform !
 
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HelpingHand said:
I suppose that's the reason why David Drumm, CEO of Anglo Irish Bank, went to the States. Frankly, your talking out of an orifice that is not your mouth. Go and take some proper legal advice. Your postulations are WRONG and serve to misinform !
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David Drumm!! :eek:

Are you seriously holding David Drumm up as an example of US leniency towards debt defaulters? You do know he failed in his attempt to file for bankruptcy in the US having been described by the Judge as being "not remotely credible" and is currently incarcerated pending extradiction to Ireland?

I see that it didn't take long for you to revert to your usual abusive ways...
 
Sarenco said:
David Drumm!! :eek:

Are you seriously holding David Drumm up as an example of US leniency towards debt defaulters? You do know he failed in his attempt to file for bankruptcy in the US having been described by the Judge as being "not remotely credible" and is currently incarcerated pending extradiction to Ireland?

I see that it didn't take long for you to revert to your usual abusive ways...
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Yes, I am. He was found not to be credible and was trying to pull a fast one. But he was in the USA for the purpose of declaring himself bankrupt, as US bankruptcy is more lenient than bankruptcy in Ireland. Face it Sarenco, your post in this regard are laughable, incorrect and untrue. In the USA, bankruptcy is more lenient than in Ireland, fact.

He is incarcerated in the USA due to criminal fraud charges in this Country lodge with the US attorney's office, in which the Irish State is seeking extradition. This imprisonment has nothing to do with his failed bankruptcy petition.
 
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I say black you say white. I say tomato say tomAto. I say potato you say potAto. You are not the Pope, you are fallable like the rest of us mere mortals. You just need to admit it to yourself.
 
More personal abuse. You really can't help yourself, can you?

I have never claimed to be infallible. When I get something wrong, I'm more than happy to admit it.

I never suggested that David Drumm's current incarceration had anything to with his failed petition for bankruptcy - I specifically stated that it was pending his extradition.

The bankruptcy term in the US was obviously shorter than the term in Ireland when David Drumm petitioned for bankruptcy in the US. That difference is now, thankfully, being removed.
 
Without boring other viewers of this thread, there are a myriad of other reasons why bankruptcy in the US is still more amenable to debtors than bankruptcy in Ireland. It is not risible as you assert in a previous post, you need to take proper legal advice in this regard, as your posts only serve to misinform readers, which is something I hope is not your intention. You are still wrong and there is no point in continuing this discussion with you as it will turn into an argument with no winners.
 
HelpingHand said:
Without boring other viewers of this thread, there are a myriad of other reasons why bankruptcy in the US is still more amenable to debtors than bankruptcy in Ireland. It is not risible as you assert in a previous post, you need to take proper legal advice in this regard, as your posts only serve to misinform readers, which is something I hope is not your intention. You are still wrong and there is no point in continuing this discussion with you as it will turn into an argument with no winners.
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I actually said that any suggestion that the US takes a more lenient attitude towards debt defaulters was, frankly, risible. This is self-evidently the case when you compare foreclosure rates in the US with repossession rates in Ireland.
 
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