Bank say account closed all savings gone?

Brendan yes the letter was from the Manager that we first went to see in September she witnessed the distraught of my uncle got him a glass of water etc when all this was found out. It was a lady then in Dormant accounts within the bank who later told us it was closed in 2002 they did not know this at the time at branch level in September so just told us no record of savings accounts at all. We followed up ourselves with dormant accounts who wouldn't tell us anything but said they would be prepared to give information to the manager we first saw. So thats what happened, dormant accounts within the bank gave the information she could see on her screen to the Manager we first saw and the letter is a result of that. Thankfully we had a statement from 1998 with the savings account number on it, as if we hadn't that - all knowledge that account did exist would be gone.
 
I think the branch are the ones who should be escalating this complaint for you, you should not need to be contacting the microfiche dept or the dormant accounts, in my opinion this should be investigated by the branch that held the account.

Has it been logged as a complaint on the banks own internal system and is the letter you received the final response letter or just the only reply?
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Contact the bank's fraud office first of all and see how you get on.
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There are a few problems here, first of all there is no evidence of a fraud and secondly the bank's relationship with the client ended 12 years ago with the client closing the account. And presumably there has been no communication with the bank by the client until he turned up looking for his money. So there is not much chance of there being a lot of documentation for them to go on.

I can think of about four possible events:

- Someone at the bank took it or it was converted into a dormant account.

- The client moved it and has forgotten all about it

- Someone who was trusted by both the client and the bank staff at the time closed the account and walked away with the money.

- A complete stranger got his hands on the client details and then either conned his way past the bank staff or somehow got one of them to cooperate with him in the theft.

Even back in 2002, there was reasonable control checks within the banks, so I expect the first option is not very likely and I'd rank fourth option as also unlikely. But the second and third options are definite possibilities. In either case the Guards would be the best suited to doing such an investigation.

In the case of the third option it is important that the Guards get involved as soon as possible, because the longer you wait the better the chance that the person will be able to cover their tracks if they have not already done so.
 
The letter received is the only reply so far, we are still waiting on micro Fiche department.
 
Hi Coffey,

I asked earlier; Who has been next of kin for the 13 years your uncle has been unwell ? As in who do the hospitals, social workers, or in later years, the nursing home contact when there is any issue to do with your uncle ?

Has this always been the same person ?

Maybe I should have been clearer why I ask, very often this person is also the person who would administer the sick person’s affairs, look after bank accounts, and pay their bills etc, and as such might have all the answers.

I administer all affairs for two elderly relatives in nursing homes, and I can account for every cent going back many years, but if you asked anyone else in the family, most would not have a clue. No doubt someday I will be asked to explain where savings have gone, and will have no problem doing so.
 
As a banker this all sounds very strange to me. I'm not as up to date with the laws and Central Bank regulations relating to deposits as I used to be. However, a deposit with a bank is not a debt, so the statute of regulations does not apply. All banks are obliged to hold documentation for a maximum of 6 years so the actual signed authority to close the account would not be to hand. However, all banks will have transactional information going back well before that period which will state how these funds were disbursed. Internal rules re withdrawals from dormant accounts are very strict and it is not easy to resurrect a dormant account without triggering some alarms internally. particularly if this level of funds is involved. Your uncles solicitor should now write a formal letter to the Bank HO stating the exact circumstances of the case and requesting full details of how the account was closed and what happened to the funds. The Bank will have this information available and I am surprised that it was not given to your uncle upon request.
 
You definitely need to go down the legal route. Statements will be held by the bank on microfiche. I used to work for a bank, and the standard policy was a limitation 6 years for standard duplicate statement requests, but earlier statements could be reproduced on production of a court order.
 
From a legal aspect is there any onus on banks to keep records for 12 years or more. This matter must have come up in the past during all the Tribunal hearings.
 
Would it be possible to get your solicitor to contact all the local banks to see if your uncle transferred the money and forgot about it. Or was your uncle in the home when the account was closed and he could not have possible moved the money.
 
Coffey said:
Brendan dormant accounts told my uncles solicitor that all they have is a note on their screen to say account closed in 2002, they say they have no further info as it's too old. My worry is that people have money they think is safe and they leave it there this really could happen to anyone, we need access to micro Fiche records to show who closed, the money hasn't been transferred anywhere and there was no need for it to be transferred it was there for safe keeping.
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Has your Uncle tried the "Data Protection Commissioner" ?

"Under Section 4 of the Data Protection Acts, 1988 and 2003, you have a right to obtain a copy, clearly explained, of any information relating to you kept on computer or in a structured manual filing system or intended for such a system by any entity or organisation. All you need to do is write to the organisation or entity concerned and ask for it under the Data Protection Acts. "

Here is a sample letter:

"Dear,

I wish to make an access request under Section 4 of the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003 for a copy of any information you keep about me, on computer or in manual form in relation to.... (Fill in as much information as possible to assist the organisations to locate the data that you are interested in accessing e.g. customer account number, staff number, or PPS number (if you are writing to a public sector organisation such as the Revenue Commissioners or the Department of Social Protection))."

There's a lot more information on the site dataprotection.ie.

Hope it helps.
 
apologies if this question already asked. Did the bank indicate the amount of the transaction which closed the account. Was it for a large amount or a small sum which would indicate previous withdrawals. I would not rule out internal fraud which can happen. In the past banks were slow to call in the Garda but maybe this attitude has changed in latter years.
 
Coffey said:
He didn't need money at all as he had a stroke was in Beaumont for 3 years then rehab for 2 years learning to walk again then in nursing home for past 8 years, he had a small pension going into his current account and old age pension, it's his savings account that has been closed on him by the bank, my concern is this could happen to anyone, just because the bank says one thing doesn't mean it's true!
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Coffey - when did he have the stroke? Reading this it seems that he has been in hospital for 13 years - 2001?

Edit to add. Also what kind of savings account was it? If it was a regular savings account then your uncle would have had to give notice to the bank to withdraw the money or to transfer it to another account (14 days notice I believe).
 
commonsense said:
If it was a regular savings account then your uncle would have had to give notice to the bank to withdraw the money or to transfer it to another account (14 days notice I believe).
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Most regular saver accounts are instant access accounts.
 
CiaranT said:
Most regular saver accounts are instant access accounts.
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Hi Ciaran, there are different types of savings accounts - instant access or regular, it really depends on what type of account he had. I have a BOI "regular" savings account and I have to give 14 days notice if I want to withdraw money. There is then the instant access where you don't.

Even if it was an "instant" access savings account I would imagine (and I stand to be corrected) that to close this and withdraw such a large amount the bank would have required some notice.
 
Dewdrop, the bank can only see on their screen closed 2002 no other information available. It was an instant access account. We will try data protection commissioner thank you as we have not done that. There are no other bank accounts in other banks all that has been looked into, the Gardai is are next option.
 
Coffey, from an earlier post you said it was the dormant acc section of the bank that provided the only information you have, i.e. that the acc was closed in 2002 - does this mean it was closed as a dormant acc, or were they saying for some reason they were the only dept that could see a trace of the acc?
You say it wasn't dormant because you have the 1998 statements, but statements don't count as activity (or nothing would ever be dormant) - only transactions would count as activity.

To confirm this one way or the other I would start with immediately initiating a reclaim of dormant acc funds, to see what comes back, their reply should then confirm whether it was closed as a dormant acc or not and you can go from there. If not closed as dormant then you know it's either 1) fraud or 2) your Uncle closed the acc and forgot.
Making this claim might just focus the banks attention in the right way.
You can get the [broken link removed] website, I would submit that and then in 28 days you know for definite whether or not it was closed as dormant.


Commonsense's suggestion of requesting info under the DPA could backfire in this case as, while the bank has an obligation to retain your information under the DPA while someone is a customer and hold it securely etc etc they are also obliged under the DPA to destroy that information after 7 (I think it's 7 not 6 yrs but anyway) years following the cessation of the customer relationship, I.e. the closure of the acc, so in this case to quote the DPA and ask the bank to provide the info would be to ask them to confirm that they have NOT fulfilled their obligations under the DPA and destroyed the info when they should have........I wouldn't go at it from that angle, I would start at Dormant Accs.

As 44Brendan stated, I would be entirely confident the transactional information is within the bank somewhere, it's just a matter of getting past the 'computer says no' response and getting someone to take their finger out and investigate it internally. Even if the bank has a system to purge dormant acc info that would only purge it on the live system, any transaction information that may be held on reports or microfiche (if they still do that) would still be there somewhere.


As regards your concern that this could happen to anyone else, to be honest that's the reason the lengths of time designated are so long - no transaction for 15 years for an acc to be dormant, and 6 / 7 yrs for information to be destroyed under the Data Protection Act - the thinking is that any queries there are should arise within that time, there is an onus on the account holder to query if they don't receive correspondence for 6 years or so, you must admit its most peculiar that your uncle didn't question why he hadn't received a statement in 12 years!

I still wouldn't rule out that your Uncle may have moved the money and forgot, sounds like there was a lot going on.
 
Hi Hippy, for an account to be classed as dormant it would have to entail zero activity for 15 years. If it was closed in 2002 then this would mean zero activity since 1987, maybe Coffey could clarify?

Coffey already contacted them and the information they have is the same as the information that the bank has - the account was closed.

Not only that, but while it's possible that the savings account was not active for some years, it was linked to an active Current account where his pension still goes (Coffey said that the savings account was on DD from the current account, which is all in order), so to my mind the "customer" relationship did not cease when the savings account was closed.

"As 44Brendan stated, I would be entirely confident the transactional information is within the bank somewhere, it's just a matter of getting past the 'computer says no' response and getting someone to take their finger out and investigate it internally. Even if the bank has a system to purge dormant acc info that would only purge it on the live system, any transaction information that may be held on reports or microfiche (if they still do that) would still be there somewhere. "

Re the above - this is exactly why I advised Coffey to apply under the data protection act, as this is exactly the information that is needed and if the bank have this information then they are not in breach of the act as it is purely transactional.

Again I would advise Coffey to try and pinpoint where her uncle was when the account was closed. If the Uncle is adamant that he did not close the account and it can be shown that he was in hospital and very unwell at the time it closed then I would contact the Gardai because there is something completely not right about this situation.
 
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