ARF charges

.. and would the broker not also have a contract or agreement with the client ?
(Could conflicts of interest arise if the agency agreement clashes with the clients)
 
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.. and would the broker not also have a contract or agreement with the client ?
(Could conflicts of interest arise if the agency agreement clashes with the clients)

Yes a broker must give a client a written statement of suitability which must cover the basis of their recommendation and the client must sign.

Agency agreements don't dictate charging structures. Most companies have a range of charging structures on each of their products from which a broker can choose.
 
Yes a broker must give a client a written statement of suitability which must cover the basis of their recommendation and the client must sign.

Agency agreements don't dictate charging structures. Most companies have a range of charging structures on each of their products from which a broker can choose.
The regulated entity must sign the statement and provide a copy of this statement on paper or on another durable medium, dated on the day on which it is completed, to the consumer prior to providing or arranging a product or service, and retain a copy.
 
So I will have a small pension pot currently valued at ca. 100k from an old employment. I have since long left Ireland and won't have any more private pensions from there, just the state pension, contributory (should be close to if not over the 40 years of contribution) and a partial German state pension. Most of my passive income in retirement will come from rental income in Ireland and Germany. I also invest in ETFs, lazilly I might add, simply regularly buying shares in a MSCI World Index for the most part. ETFs are very easy to buy into in Germany from a tax perspective. My Irish DC pension pot is also pretty much all in a MSCI world index with Mercer. The fees are "low" as far as I know and subsidised by my former employer, so I think it makes sense to leave that pot invested as long as possible before conversion to an ARF. I had (naively it seems) assumed I could "simply" convert this pot into "more of the same", ie an ARF tracking the same MSCI world index, without the need for advisors and whatnot. I don't need investment advice as I know where I want to put this pot. Can I not just do this for "small money" directly with one of the ARF providers, having sought out the one that will charge me the least in management fees? There surely isn't a lot to manage when the client's funds are essentially in a passive ETF!

What does someone in my position do? I do not expect or care if the fund bombs out before I die. It is only 100k so it most likely will bomb out with the 4%/5% imputed distributions. The old DC pension is more of a nice to have in early retirement and in fact I would prefer to "burn" through it while I am still able to enjoy it rather than making sure it's still paying out €50 a month when I am 95.
 
Are you saying it’s not possible to get an ARF with 100% allocation with 0.40% AMC?

Yes it is.

This is not meaningful if you don’t tell us the disclosed costs.

My understading of this program is that the numbers can be run with and without charges.

By comparing the figures of one provider from their own pricing disclosures (that include OOCs, PTCs, and part of the AMC) with the the numbers above I can get close enough to the cumulative result. I suspect the difference is down to the fact that their own pricing just goes to the 13th September so I'd assume that when this 'comparison' was run that the comparative days were also off as the numbers feed into this program. But, as you say, full disclosure of what costs all indices include is the only way to afford past performance charts any credibility.

It really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that an index that doesn't have any costs included (?) is going to be better than one that does.

Gerard

www.prsa.ie
 
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So I will have a small pension pot currently valued at ca. 100k from an old employment. I have since long left Ireland and won't have any more private pensions from there, just the state pension, contributory (should be close to if not over the 40 years of contribution) and a partial German state pension. Most of my passive income in retirement will come from rental income in Ireland and Germany. I also invest in ETFs, lazilly I might add, simply regularly buying shares in a MSCI World Index for the most part. ETFs are very easy to buy into in Germany from a tax perspective. My Irish DC pension pot is also pretty much all in a MSCI world index with Mercer. The fees are "low" as far as I know and subsidised by my former employer, so I think it makes sense to leave that pot invested as long as possible before conversion to an ARF. I had (naively it seems) assumed I could "simply" convert this pot into "more of the same", ie an ARF tracking the same MSCI world index, without the need for advisors and whatnot. I don't need investment advice as I know where I want to put this pot. Can I not just do this for "small money" directly with one of the ARF providers, having sought out the one that will charge me the least in management fees? There surely isn't a lot to manage when the client's funds are essentially in a passive ETF!

What does someone in my position do? I do not expect or care if the fund bombs out before I die. It is only 100k so it most likely will bomb out with the 4%/5% imputed distributions. The old DC pension is more of a nice to have in early retirement and in fact I would prefer to "burn" through it while I am still able to enjoy it rather than making sure it's still paying out €50 a month when I am 95.
You will almost certainly only be offered a lump sum and an annuity because you are non resident.

You could transfer to another EU pension arrangement outside Ireland. But your fund is too small to be commercially viable for our fees. If you have another German scheme talk to them and see if they will accept a transfer in.

As a last resort it is possible to arrange an ARF invested in index funds for a fee. You would not be able to obtain an Irish PAYE exclusion order.
 
Yes it is.



My understading of this program is that the numbers can be run with and without charges.

By comparing the figures of one provider from their own pricing disclosures (that include OOCs, PTCs, and part of the AMC) with the the numbers above I can get close enough to the cumulative result. I suspect the difference is down to the fact that their own pricing just goes to the 13th September so I'd assume that when this 'comparison' was run that the comparative days were also off as the numbers feed into this program. But, as you say, full disclosure of what costs all indices include is the only way to afford past performance charts any credibility.

It really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that an index that doesn't have any costs included (?) is going to be better than one that does.

Gerard

www.prsa.ie
FE told us that they find dealing with Irish insurance companies very frustrating because they are not clear about what charges are included in their returns.

All things being equal it should be the Net Asset value or NAV so that direct comparisons can be made of ex post returns.
 
FE told us that they find dealing with Irish insurance companies very frustrating because they are not clear about what charges are included in their returns.

So why use FE?

Why not get the information directly from the companies if you want to do this type of 'analysis'?
 
So why use FE?

Why not get the information directly from the companies if you want to do this type of 'analysis'?
Hey Al Capone are you a gangster?
“no”
Good enough for me he says he’s not
 
You will almost certainly only be offered a lump sum and an annuity because you are non resident.

You could transfer to another EU pension arrangement outside Ireland. But your fund is too small to be commercially viable for our fees. If you have another German scheme talk to them and see if they will accept a transfer in.

As a last resort it is possible to arrange an ARF invested in index funds for a fee. You would not be able to obtain an Irish PAYE exclusion order.
That's disappointing to say the least. Why would an ARF be out of the question I wonder? They still have the whole PAYE stuff to manage if I have an annuity with them and the non-availability of a PAYE exclusion order is in fact a plus in my case as this income is then not taxable in Germany once the Revenue has taxed it. The TFLS is not sensible in my case as it is taxable in Germany.

I don't and won't have a German private pension as the tax breaks are so miniscule and charges so high as to make investing in them a waste compared to just directly buying ETFs. There is no generous tax free lump sum stuff in Germany to avail of.

I may have to "relocate" to my brother's house in Ireland when setting this up, and then "relocate" back to Germany. Assuming I was Irish resident during the setup phase, what would a person in my situation do to get an ARF tracking the MSCI world index for the lowest management fees possible?
 
The regulated entity must sign the statement and provide a copy of this statement on paper or on another durable medium, dated on the day on which it is completed, to the consumer prior to providing or arranging a product or service, and retain a copy.

Exactly, Marc. You are correct. A broker must sign their name to a written statement, which must be individual to each transaction, detailing why they are recommending a particular product and why it is the most suitable solution for the client, from the alternatives available.
 
So basically - how to keep as much of your own pension pot to fund your retirement in this country is third secret of fatima stuff. Absolutely no transparency on fees, costs or comparable options.
Advisors, brokers, insurance companies all sniffing around looking to pounce and take their bite. So much mis-information and scare-mongery thrown out into the ether to make sure the average punter is so confused, worried and frustrated that they will gladly hand it to an 'expert'.

Sometimes I think it would be easier if you just had the option of keeping your pension pot in special deposit account / simple trading platform that you can't access until you are retire the fund, but you have total control over.
 
So basically - how to keep as much of your own pension pot to fund your retirement in this country is third secret of fatima stuff. Absolutely no transparency on fees, costs or comparable options.
Advisors, brokers, insurance companies all sniffing around looking to pounce and take their bite. So much mis-information and scare-mongery thrown out into the ether to make sure the average punter is so confused, worried and frustrated that they will gladly hand it to an 'expert'.

Sometimes I think it would be easier if you just had the option of keeping your pension pot in special deposit account / simple trading platform that you can't access until you are retire the fund, but you have total control over.
Whatever about mis-information, one of my issues is the "amount" of information that is presented to a typical customer. Whilst I consider myself reasonably financially savvy and able to grasp the basics of most financial products out there, my takeaway from looking at the charts and data shared by Marc on page 2, #21 (for example) is that this is way too much data for most people. No disrespect to Marc and I'd guess his software and licence costs are significant.

Even if you can take it all in and then decide to look around for an alternative proposal, the format of the next presentation is likely to be different making comparisons difficult. Perhaps there is some value in the idea of a standard format to present retirement products.

As I continue to weigh up whether to go ARF or Annuity when my time comes, this thread is definitely edging me towards annuity even if it's just to stop me feeling annoyed/ anxious about constant value erosion from fees.
 
FE told us that they find dealing with Irish insurance companies very frustrating because they are not clear about what charges are included in their returns.
So any analysis based on that data is suspect, to put it charitably.
 
Whatever about mis-information, one of my issues is the "amount" of information that is presented to a typical customer. Whilst I consider myself reasonably financially savvy and able to grasp the basics of most financial products out there, my takeaway from looking at the charts and data shared by Marc on page 2, #21 (for example) is that this is way too much data for most people. No disrespect to Marc and I'd guess his software and licence costs are significant.

Even if you can take it all in and then decide to look around for an alternative proposal, the format of the next presentation is likely to be different making comparisons difficult. Perhaps there is some value in the idea of a standard format to present retirement products.

As I continue to weigh up whether to go ARF or Annuity when my time comes, this thread is definitely edging me towards annuity even if it's just to stop me feeling annoyed/ anxious about constant value erosion from fees.
For me this is the salient argument in all this.

Regulation has required intermediaries to provide ever increasing amounts of disclosure documents simply to shine a light on previously deliberately hidden fees.

When we show the real cost of investing in Ireland today we are criticised.

I described running an ARF like trying to gracefully drive an articulated lorry down a cliff. Yet many people believe it to be much less complicated than it really is and project their own lived experience (sample size of one) as the definitive answer for all.

To illustrate sequence of return risks etc requires sophisticated stochastic software. Naturally if you just model in excel a simple return of 6%pa the variability of returns just vanishes away.

As I have argued elsewhere, an annuity represents a relevant benchmark for everyone and for some people it is going to be the most suitable and appropriate option.

Unfortunately the agency risk in financial services bakes an inherent conflict of interest into the “advice process” such as it is to the extent that one of my clients, a retiring GP was told 95% of people elect for an ARF.

We recommended he take the scheme annuity on offer
 
So any analysis based on that data is suspect, to put it charitably.
Depends on the point one is seeking to make.

My point is I pay thousands in licence fees to try to get to the bottom of the real cost of investing in Ireland because nobody can rely on the disclosed fees.

As an actuary client said when we asked if they could tell us what the real costs of a pension were from the Irish insurance company they had just left;” not from publicly available information”

QED
 
That's really crazy. We have had a means of fairly comparing loans based on APR for decades yet no such consumer friendly mechanism exists in the pensions industry it seems.
 
Depends on the point one is seeking to make.
Oh, I do understand (and appreciate) the point you are trying to make. The problem is your analysis is flawed.

Firstly, you don't know (or least haven't told us) what are the disclosed costs that are incorporated into the return figures. If you don't know the disclosed costs how can you determine the undisclosed costs?

Secondly, you have inappropriately used the gross return version of the index which significantly exaggerates the tracking error.

I genuinely admire your candour in fully disclosing the costs associated with your offering. However, you haven't made out your case that on a total cost basis your offering is cheaper than the majority of the market on a commission basis.

Now you may well argue that you offer a comprehensive, bespoke service that fully justifies your fee level. I've no problem with that but the OP specifically asked for the cheapest ARF.
 
As I continue to weigh up whether to go ARF or Annuity when my time comes, this thread is definitely edging me towards annuity even if it's just to stop me feeling annoyed/ anxious about constant value erosion from fees.
This is exactly where my mind is too at the moment, and most likely lots of others. It really doesn't need to be like this, and it's incredibly frustrating, and probably more so, the more you research you do
 
This is exactly where my mind is too at the moment, and most likely lots of others. It really doesn't need to be like this, and it's incredibly frustrating, and probably more so, the more you research you do
It's not that complicated. When you come to draw down your pension, look at everything, the annuity rates available, the ARF options. Weigh up the pros and cons and go for the one that suits your circumstances the best.

Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
 
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