Are we encouraging people to not work.

[wondering]

But as for failed citizens who are gaming the system, i.e. those who CHOOSE not to work, they should be out on the streets in orange overalls picking up chewing gum and dog excrement.

Why orange? To make them more visible?

Anyone who litters the street regardless of status, should be sentenced to do that job. The streets should be patrolled so that littering is an offense.

The problems with society are systemic - that's harder to look at. It's far easier psychologically to scapegoat.

Everyone chooses what makes sense to them, or in other words, what's easier. It's less about conscious choice of seeing options open, and more about reducing or eliminating psychological stress (of going against the tide of training, etc).

The phenomenon of choice has been studied quite a lot. There's a book in Economics on it whose name I can't think of, I only read an extract. Suffice to say, anyone who's looked into it a bit would tell you it's not as simple as some would like to think it is.

 

[Sophrosyne]

The issue as I understand it is that the various welfare systems combine to make it worthwhile for many people to work part-time (2-3 days per week max) in low-earning employment but not full time nor in in higher-earning employment.

Agreed. No one will knowingly impoverish himself or herself.

However, I would prefer the discussion to be evidenced based rather than purely hearsay.

 

[T McGibney]

However, I would prefer the discussion to be evidenced based rather than purely hearsay.

To be fair, it's more than just hearsay. Anyone who has employed people knows what the score is.

 

[MrEarl]

I think a big problem too is people working partly for cash. Don’t begrudge it(well maybe a little)

You should begrudge them, and actually report them - those people are part of the reason that the rest of us have to pay more tax

 

[Groucho]

However, I would prefer the discussion to be evidenced based rather than purely hearsay.

Well, for starters, the Working Family Payment (used to be called the Family Income Supplement) could be seen as a State-funded incentive for people to work fewer hours and stay at home minding the kids thereby saving the costs of a childminder.

To be eligible, applicants must:- Work 38 or more hours per fortnight in any combination of hours. (You can combine your weekly hours with your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant's hours to meet this condition.)

 

[Groucho]

those who CHOOSE not to work should be out on the streets in orange overalls picking up chewing gum and dog excrement.

Being a reasonable man, would you have any strong objections to those overalls being coloured cerise?

 

[Pugmister]

You should begrudge them, and actually report them - those people are part of the reason that the rest of us have to pay more tax

I've found that falls on deaf ears. I know of one tradesman who fraudulently claimed 20k in Covid payments and has paid approximately 2k per year for the last 10 years in income tax. They openly brag about having multiple six figures in cash hidden away when they have had a few drinks. They also paid a bank official a sum of money to forge documents in order to get mortgage approval.

Said individual was reported to revenue along with vast amounts of proof to back up all claims made and nothing has ever been done about it. In fact this person now has a 6 month waiting list and strictly only accepts cash / revolut for all works carried.

I know of two others also in similar positions and the undeclared income they make is staggering

 

[T McGibney]

I've found that falls on deaf ears. I know of one tradesman who fraudulently claimed 20k in Covid payments and has paid approximately 2k per year for the last 10 years in income tax. They openly brag about having multiple six figures in cash hidden away when they have had a few drinks. They also paid a bank official a sum of money to forge documents in order to get mortgage approval.

Said individual was reported to revenue along with vast amounts of proof to back up all claims made and nothing has ever been done about it. In fact this person now has a 6 month waiting list and strictly only accepts cash / revolut for all works carried.

I know of two others also in similar positions and the undeclared income they make is staggering

How do you know all this?

What you're claiming about this person, if they even exist, is not credible.

Especially the bit about someone reporting him to Revenue "with vast amounts of proof to back up all claims made".

 

[dubdub123]

Well, for starters, the Working Family Payment (used to be called the Family Income Supplement) could be seen as a State-funded incentive for people to work fewer hours and stay at home minding the kids thereby saving the costs of a childminder.

To be eligible, applicants must:- Work 38 or more hours per fortnight in any combination of hours. (You can combine your weekly hours with your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant's hours to meet this condition.)

WFP can also be viewed as a lifeline for people trying to enter the workforce on either a part time or full time basis, and particularly lone parents who have to fund childcare. Removing this could very likely result in increased unemployment for one of the most vulnerable sectors in society.

 

[Pugmister]

How do you know all this?

What you're claiming about this person, if they even exist, is not credible.

Especially the bit about someone reporting him to Revenue "with vast amounts of proof to back up all claims made".

I know as the person who made the report is a neighbour. Whilst I didn’t see the actual written report I did see the evidence supplied to substantiate the claims made. This was photographs of works carried out taken from this persons social media account over the last 3 years.

I don’t know the trades person personally but there’s people in my wider friends group that do and his actions are well known.

 

[noproblem]

I know as the person who made the report is a neighbour. Whilst I didn’t see the actual written report I did see the evidence supplied to substantiate the claims made. This was photographs of works carried out taken from this persons social media account of the last 3 years.

Whilst I don’t know the trades person that well there’s people in my wider friends group that do and his actions are well known.

Not possible in today's world, especially with everything you've said. Revenue would be all over him like a bad rash and they most certainly would find practically everything, like cash and anything he owns. Don't care how smart you might think he is.

 

[Pugmister]

Not possible in today's world, especially with everything you've said. Revenue would be all over him like a bad rash and they most certainly would find practically everything, like cash and anything he owns. Don't care how smart you might think he is.

I can only go on what I’ve been told and what I’ve seen and it certainly does add up.

From my own experience, we undertook a significant house renovation in the last few years. Of the eight quotes we got, two of the companies were willing to offer a discount for cash without being asked, one of which was a 60/40 split. We didn’t use either of these companies but this stuff certainly does go on

 

[joe sod]

Thankfully, the number of jobless households has fallen:


View attachment 6714

This graph doesn't make much sense because we all know that the worst of the financial crash happened in the years 2009 to 2012, so the irish graph shows a big rise in the number of jobless households between the years 2009 to 2013 but no other country shows this big rise. But this doesn't make sense because we know the financial crash hit other countries like Greece, Italy and Spain much worse than Ireland. Even by 2017 Ireland still had the highest number of jobless households in the EU still higher than Greece , Italy and spain.
Or maybe it does make sense we have many households choosing to stay on welfare than work even though we had a much stronger economy than other european countries such as Greece and Italy

 

[blueband]

I can only go on what I’ve been told and what I’ve seen and it certainly does add up.

From my own experience, we undertook a significant house renovation in the last few years. Of the eight quotes we got, two of the companies were willing to offer a discount for cash without being asked, one of which was a 60/40 split. We didn’t use either of these companies but this stuff certainly does go on

not against the law to offer a cash discount...many places do it.

 

[Mapara]

in one word yes, as in some circumstances its just doesn't make finacial sense to work fulltime.

 

[MrEarl]

I've found that falls on deaf ears. I know of one tradesman who fraudulently claimed 20k in Covid payments and has paid approximately 2k per year for the last 10 years in income tax. They openly brag about having multiple six figures in cash hidden away when they have had a few drinks. They also paid a bank official a sum of money to forge documents in order to get mortgage approval.

Said individual was reported to revenue along with vast amounts of proof to back up all claims made and nothing has ever been done about it. In fact this person now has a 6 month waiting list and strictly only accepts cash / revolut for all works carried.

I know of two others also in similar positions and the undeclared income they make is staggering

Perhaps Revenue weren't able to catch him ?

I think the Irish attitude to tax dodging probably days back to when the English ruled Ireland, and it was generally accepted that avoiding English "taxes" was a good thing, a type of rebellion etc. However, the bug difference now is that people are ripping their fellow citizens off, in a free state.

Remember - the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing!

 

[T McGibney]

I know as the person who made the report is a neighbour. Whilst I didn’t see the actual written report I did see the evidence supplied to substantiate the claims made. This was photographs of works carried out taken from this persons social media account over the last 3 years.

I don’t know the trades person personally but there’s people in my wider friends group that do and his actions are well known.

Hmmmm.....

You know how much he claimed in Covid payments.

You know he has six figures in the bank because "he brags about it".

You know that he bribed a bank official to get a mortgage.

You know he was reported to revenue "along with vast amounts of proof to back up all claims made" (the same report you admit you haven't seen) and you know nothing has ever been done about it.

You know he now has a 6 month waiting list.

You know he strictly only accepts cash / revolut for all works done.

(Revenue can access Revolut by the way. They also routinely monitor social media.)

Is this person you?

 

[Pugmister]

Hmmmm.....

You know how much he claimed in Covid payments.

You know he has six figures in the bank because "he brags about it".

You know that he bribed a bank official to get a mortgage.

You know he was reported to revenue "along with vast amounts of proof to back up all claims made" (the same report you admit you haven't seen) and you know nothing has ever been done about it.

You know he now has a 6 month waiting list.

You know he strictly only accepts cash / revolut for all works done.

(Revenue can access Revolut by the way. They also routinely monitor social media.)

Is this person you?

No it is not me....both my wife and myself are PAYE workers.

I know what the waiting list and payment terms are because i enquired about getting work done at one point in time. I was told it was a six month wait and 25% deposit required by Revolut to secure a booking place with the balance to be paid in cash. The person is in the carpentry business specialising in media units.

Everything else i have stated is what i have been told by my neighbour who made the report and i have no reason to doubt what they are telling me. I did not see the written report that they made but i did see the photo evidence submitted as they were saved on a mobile device.

Undeclared income seems to be accepted and applauded by many people in Ireland and from what i can see it is widespread problem.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

Just wondering where are you getting these figures?

CSO.


Have a look here.

 

[T McGibney]

CSO.


Have a look here.

Labour Underutilisation Rate​

This indicator refers to the number of persons classified as unemployed, plus those classified as part-time under employed, plus those outside the labour force who are available for work but not seeking work as a percentage share of the total labour force.

Labour Underutilisation Rate - CSO - Central Statistics Office

www.cso.ie

At a macro level the workforce today contains only about 11% of people who would rather be working more hours. It was as high as 25% in 2012 when the economy was on the floor. To me that tells a lot..

Apples. Oranges.