Are we a failed state?

One of these fine days I'll get the hang of multi-quote but in the interim!
BTW we are way off topic, so I'll restrict the answers down.




* This idea cannot be sumised in a line or two. See Christine Korsgaard's "The Sources of Normativity"(2004) Cambridge University Press which aims to explain the origins of human morality.
 
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We'll just have to remain in disagreement there. I believe there is plenty of evidence in the world to suggest that the wealthier rich people are in a free society the wealthier the poor are too.

But are you not assuming that a family with a couple of kids is better off today with both parents working than a family 60 years ago with only one parent working? Both of my grandfathers raised their families with only one income, and neither of the families were left wanting. Today you have families with pretty much the same standard of living that are entirely dependent on two incomes.
I would also say that child carers are temporarily "disadvantaged" by not being able to work. But there are also very significant advantages to caring for others especially your own children. I would happily sacrifice part of my wages to be able to spend more time at home with my family as I value that part of my life more.

Let me clarify. I put the term "self-interest" in quotations and the term is very easily misunderstood in this context. Basically, every human action is performed by the actor to improve their physical or psychological well-being. If I buy a sandwich and eat it I do so because I want the satisfaction of having eaten something. If I volunteer at a charity once a week, I do so for the feeling of satisfaction of having helped someone. In both cases I act with the "self-interest" of satisfying a physical or psychological need, as long as my actions are made out of free choice and not coercion.

Some people are "victims" of brute luck. The disabled etc are perhaps short-changed in the lottery of life. Without a notion of equality they may not be able to pull themselves out of a bad situation.
Yes, disability is entirely different matter, and I have no problem with there being help for disabled. But I would rather see private charities doing the helping, as they are far better at making the most out of scarce resources. But as I said, I do not believe that an able bodied poor person needs special consideration and handouts appr9opriated by force.

Very true, but the fact that big business uses the power of its money to influence public policy is a problem of our government system. As a classical liberal I would like to see government's only roles being in protecting the country and its citizens from foreign and domestic harm. In such a situation a big business could throw as much money at politicians as it liked, but government would not be able to influence a positive outcome for the business. Hayek once suggested a simple constitutional law that required that every legislation that is passed be applied to all members and organisations of society equally. Financial industry lobbies for a tax break, give everyone the exact same tax break; this avoids favouritism to the loudest and most powerful lobby group.
 
Again I need to look up multi-quote... note to self!

 
While there certainly may be a correlation between unequal income and "happiness" that doesn't mean that government intervention can solve the problem. As I already outlined the poor are more disadvantaged by government regulations and barriers to entry into many industries which exacerbates the level of unequal income. The monetary system and government policies towards large corporations also exacerbates it. But these are all characteristics of increased interventionism and less freedom. Income inequality was not a problem during the industrial revolution where government intervention and welfare was at a minimum.

But society should not be forced to pay for someone to care for a relative. Pretty much everyone in society will at one stage or another care for a relative. By forcing society to pay for carers you are robbing to Peter to pay Paul, only to take the money off Paul again to pay Peter. As I said there are rewards that go far beyond monetary ones when it comes to caring for others.

Of course there are outside influences in human choice, but at the very basic level human actions are done because the person believes, rightly or wrongly, that they will be better off by performing the action.

Let me clarify the reason why private charities should do the helping. Firstly I think that helping others should be voluntary and not by force through government, but that is an entirely different matter. But given the situation where government collects a certain amount of taxes to help others, I would rather see that money being given to private charities to do the helping. I think it was the guy running the Jack and Jill foundation that I heard the other day in an interview saying that the foundation, given the same amount of money, could help more people the the respective government service. All resources are scarce, so we should be giving them to those that can make best use of them.

Tax breaks designed specifically for business's cannot be extended to individuals easily. One of the problems in the US specifically is that corporations have been able to nominate themselves as "persons" whilst not obviously being persons.
Actually not so difficult at all. If big business lobbies for a reduction in taxation from lets say 10% to 9%, then reduce all other taxes by the relatively same 10%.
 
Chris I think we are at an impasse and must declare an honourable truce here, as clearly we aren't convincing each other, and only cyber space will be taken up with a kind of theoretical game of ping, pong!

At the heart of what I am saying I suppose is that no system or theory provides all answers. We can agree on some points and must diverge on others. However, I don't accept that either Capitalism, Socialism/Communism, our hybrid or anything else provides a one stop shop of answers to our problems and would lead to an Utopia, or anything like it. And this is why all theoretical approaches are flawed if they aren't contextualised. Counter-examples to all theories abound. We cannot escape the need to choose sometimes even when no one choice seems better than any other.

The search for certainty is an ancient one, Descartes himself faltered at it. To return to the question " are we a failed state?" I don't think this elicts a simple answer. I might say it's true and explain why I think so, but my opinion cannot be absolute. Plato asked the question what is justice thousands of years ago and nobody has yet answered it ! Our natures, and perhaps the nature of reality means we cannot isolate pure answers to what appear straight-forward questions. When the founding fathers say everyone can pursue happiness, we are left with a false impression that this is straightforward, but it's really anything but.
 
horusd, truce accepted and I agree that there is no utopia, not even in a totally free market system.
The only thing I would add is the following historical observations:
1) Socialism/communism has failed everywhere tried
2) Our current hybrid system of cronyism has spectacularly failed, albeit not as bad as communism
3) Small government and low levels of intervention proved very successful during the industrial revolution.

One other thing that I forgot to comment on was your statement about "And those who make money in society also owe it something. "
Those that make money, even the richest, do so because they serve their customers who are relatively free to spend their money or not. It is not a case that rich people take money of the table without providing something. Now there are certain government protected industries like banking and energy where huge profits are made because of government intervention and protection. But by and large rich people find a way to best serve their customers who voluntarily part with their money while at the same time creating employment. Society has already benefited from their products and job creation, so these people do not owe society anything more.
 
And,finally, don't forget that at least a million Irish people in the six counties feel that it is better to belong to UK and the Republic -not only from the Protestant community but ,according to the latest survey ,half of the Catholic community.

That's besides many many 9head-down-and-say-nothing) southern unionists like me that have always known that the Republic is ,well if not a failed state , pretty much of a failure.

(and for the so-called "Irish patriots" amongst you , let me explain that one can be happy and often proud to have an Irish passport, love this land and one's fellow-citizens and, indeed, feel more comfortable here than in the U.K. -but strongly feel that so-called Irish independence was a mistake and that it makes far more sense to have a united British-Irish government with autonomy for each area -even with rotating capital cities. )
 

Chris I'll (mostly) let you away with the last word! I have to say that Berlin's article, (particularly the last few pages), I referred to above, was one of the most eye-opening I've read. Whilst on balance endorsing a liberal agenda, he acknowledges that the problems we face in trying to address the multiplicity of human wants and values may be insolvable. This dilemma confronts us daily, with no obvious answer, where no choice is pain-free and without a cost. It's fascinating to me that we seek certainty & firm ground, yet never find it. We can argue the toss, but can never achieve an outright win. This doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but it's humbling to know that know that success is. at best, subjective.

In Milton's Paradise Lost Adam & Eve are chucked out of Eden (perfection)for eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good & evil.
They are left with imperfection yet knowledge/awareness. Their sin was to want to be god-like and leave behind their ignorance, even at the price of their bliss. Milton captures the essential human dilemma in this exchange between Adam and the angel Raphael about reaching beyond man's limits:

(Raphael) :"...be lowly wise; think only what concerns thee and thy being...

(Adam): " How fully hast thou satisfied me, pure
Intelligence of heaven...And, freed from intricacies, taught to
live the easiest way, nor with perplexing thoughts to interrupt
the sweet of life, from which God hath bid dwell far off all anxious cares,
and not molest us, unless we ourselves, seek them with wandering
thoughts, and notions vain." VIII ( 174-187)

We still seek perfection, believing it possible, a point where all things are harmonious, where all human values meet. Yet, as Adam & Eve discovered, even Paradise didn't provide this, and hence they ate the fruit, wanting more. So it seems harmony & order are incompatible with us, and no social/economic model; pure Capitalism, Socialism, or Communism, will ever bring us to this illusory state, at best, we hit an unstable compromise.
 
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