Are private schools better than state schools?

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Leper

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Two of ours went to private schools and the others went to ordinary secondary schools. Our private students performed marginally less than the others in the Leaving Cert and left school with less street-savvy.

I believe if the pupil wants to achieve any objective he/she will work towards that private or public. Incidentally, all of them are professionals and earn the same as each other.

I'm not going to brow beat you into doing what you don't wish to do, but take it or leave it I think you'll need a Plan B. And I think you're the kind of person who will have Plans A, B and C.
 
Perhaps OT but fee-paying schools don't produce better educational outcomes when you control for other factors.

If you have €45k to spend on kids' education each keep it til 3rd-level or after. Imagine they want a taught masters at a university abroad, post-grad medical school, devilling as a barrister, pilot training, something like that.

This can be very expensive to fund but will produce very good earnings. A much better investment in your kids than school fees.
 
Leper said:
Two of ours went to private schools and the others went to ordinary secondary schools. Our private students performed marginally less than the others in the Leaving Cert and left school with less street-savvy.

I believe if the pupil wants to achieve any objective he/she will work towards that private or public. Incidentally, all of them are professionals and earn the same as each other.

I'm not going to brow beat you into doing what you don't wish to do, but take it or leave it I think you'll need a Plan B. And I think you're the kind of person who will have Plans A, B and C.
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You are right, i do like to have a Plan A, B, and C!

Our preference would be to send both kids to a state school. The problem with schools in our proximity is that they can generally be broken down into the following:

- One private school which historically gets excellent results (if you judge by school league tables, which is a different debate!) and has a very good reputation generally. We would have a good chance of getting the kids in, as i am a past pupil myself. However, i do hold an opinion that this type of school is not suited to everyone, and weaker students can get left behind and end up hating their whole school experience. I think these such kids might do better (both socially and academically) in a state school
- A state school with a very good reputation and although significantly lower than the private school above in league tables, we would be delighted to send our kids there. However, places in this school are very much in demand. It is unlikely we will get in unless we have an address in the catchment area. Houses in this area attract high prices, partly because of this school. The downside is that we would be moving slightly outside of the area we've settled in & slightly further from our wider families, but still not far.
- A state school in the area we live in now. It has on ok reputation and i believe kids generally do well here when there is a good emphasis on education at home, which there is in our case. League Tables wise, it is significantly below the state school mentioned above. A big advantage is we would be staying in the area. However, we might still need to move house or else build a large extension to our current house. That would take up a lot of our garden, which would be a big drawback for me
- The remining state schools in the area have really terrible reputations. This is well-known historically in the areas, not just on League Tables, which they barely feature on. We are not considering these schools at all, even though housing stock in some of the area are good and the areas are nice.


So it is quite the dilemma. I think we need to move house either way. The question is do we try aim for the area with the good public school, after which we would have a valuable asset having bought there? Or do we focus on a decent house in an area we are happy to live in, but not break the bank in terms of having a mortgage that will prevent us sending kids to the private school?
 
I think you should focus on a school which is convenient, and where your kids will fit in socially. There is no evidence that paying fees makes your kids any smarter, but there may be other reasons to do it.

I went to two different secondary schools, one kind of middle class and one in a disadvantaged area. I much preferred the disadvantaged school. There was a much nicer atmosphere and more motivated teachers even though league table outcomes were a lot worse. I don't generalise from this but it worked for me and I didn't suffer academically. No one has asked me where I sent to school since the first few weeks of college anyway.

In terms of labour market outcomes, your degree and/or professional qualification is FAR more important than what secondary school you went to.
 
Not being a Dublin native, I still am surprised to hear adults refer to the secondary school they went to. I have seen it listed on professional CVs. I am fully of the opinion that a well motivated and supported student will do well academically in most schools. And I also believe that those who manage to build up networks that can assist them professionally will do so at every stage of life, not just secondary school. We would hope to support our children not by paying for private school fees, but channeling our income into giving them financial support for a deposit, masters etc instead. I guess we are all just trying to do our best for our kids really!
 
misemoi said:
I am fully of the opinion that a well motivated and supported student will do well academically in most schools.
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In some schools this kid will be the norm, in other schools they will be outliers. Its much easier to achieve when you are surrounded by others who are trying to achieve.

But what if your kid rather than being 'well motivated' is in fact an easily distracted student. Put them in a group of disinterested students or put them in a well motivated group the outcomes are unlikely to be the same.

Not all kids are alike and not all schools are alike.
 
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misemoi said:
[not] Dublin native, I still am surprised to hear adults refer to the secondary school...
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Fee paying schools are very much a Dublin phenomenon. The overwhelming majority of students currently in third level in Ireland went to state schools.

For the OP, if you have the option to move house and have both your children attend a state school you are happy with, I would recommend that as a first option.

You will have the funds to pay for extra curricular activities such as music lessons, dance, Scouting etc. They are almost as important as school hours in my opinion.
 
Teachers make a school what it is, in terms of a good school or a poor one, and, if your lucky, you get a good teacher who really has the kids interest at heart and just nurture them like they should do. And that is unfortunately the luck of the draw.

In a private school, I believe teachers are under more pressure to see that their students perform well in examinations, be it via memory functions (which is what most tests are about) or just to challenge them in all aspects. Private schools are not cheap, and you expect better than normal results. I know I did, and I wasn't disappointed at all I can tell you, it was worth every cent.

But location has a lot to do with deciding Private or State school. If I were in a location where there was not a lot of pressure on the local School, I wouldn't rule it out, for if the child has an interest in learning, and is given the opportunity to do so, they can achieve great results, and be set up for the big world out there.

The alternative, the local girls school in my area, with hundreds attending, sure how can the teacher, as much as they may want to, challenge the students to engage in learning.

Im past putting kids through school, but what I did take from it was, The younger Teachers had lots of energy starting out, the ones with a few years to go on retirement, couldn't have cared less, and were really just seeing their days out, to the detriment of the student, and in doing that, the energetic ones soon saw this as the norm, and the energy and enthusiasm soon melted away, and so the merry go round will continue until poor performing Teachers/Schools are held accountable.
 
I apologise for being pedantic, but note that most second-level schools are privately-owned.

The distinction is between fee-paying, and non fee-paying.

The only State-owned schools are VEC/ETB schools.
 
I think it's very important to be very aware of your childs strengths and weaknesses and choose the school that is best suited to his needs.
Not all children are academics. Our 3 went to separate schools but the one who was the least academic had the happiest days at his school, and therefore achieved well and is a very rounded person and very dedicated to his work.
 
As a teacher I think you need to look at what school
will be the best fit for your child ie if school
Is very acadmeic or sporty and they aren’t it’s going to be a miserable few years. They need to be happy in the school’s environment and a happy school is an important thing to look for. Most students who are going to do well, will do so especially if motivated from home, a lot also depends on their group of peers. Look at all aspects in a school including subject choice, commute, extra curriculars etc. In some parts of Dublin non fee paying schools are hugely oversubscribed and parents feel
they must go private
 
For every school (even fee-paying ones) you can read the what is called a "Whole School Evaluation" report on the Department of Education's website.

They get zero publicity compared to league tables but are a very useful resource (you have to read between the lines a bit). I think they are done once every ten years.

I read the one for my secondary school done about 5 years after I left and found it was pretty accurate.
 
Middle class snobbery abounds in these discussions.
We are talking about secondary schools when we talk about private schools as there are very few private primary schools.
I went to the local CBS. There were a few kids from much more socially deprived areas who bussed or cycled to the school. That school is now full so that option isn't open to those families. If they choose to spend their hard earned money spending their kids to a private school in order to improve their prospects in life then I'm certainly not going to criticise them.
There are two types of schools in this country, the type where you get slagged for being thick and the type where you get slagged for doing your homework. Is anyone seriously going to suggest that there is a bigger gap between Blackrock College and the local public school than there is between that public school in Blackrock and the community school in Jobstown?
 
Having attended both a public school and also a fee paying boarding school my observations are that the pupils were broadly similar in ability. Same goes for the teachers. The difference was in culture and expectation. The kids in fee paying schools had seen their parents with good jobs earning well and were expected to follow and become higher achievers. The outcomes for the kids had less to do with the school and more to do with the parents. I would guess kids attending non-fee paying schools in well to do areas would perform similarly to those in fee paying schools.

Just my observations from my experience and probably over simplified.
 
My son started 1st year in a fee paying school. There was one particular school we wanted him to get into and he did. Otherwise it would have been the local school.

My daughter will also be going to a fee paying school. She is in 4th class now so a few years to go. We wanted her to go to a non fee paying school but there is over 1,000 kids on the waiting list. And although my wife went to that school, we didn't put my daughter's name down until 2nd class, so she has an outside chance of getting a place. We got an offer for a really good, modern school, with small classes. This will suit my daughter's personality more and the school is closer to our home (although no public transport to it).

As someone who went to a private school myself, I can say that you don't get better teachers at fee paying schools, you get the same standard. One teacher that I had had no problem telling us how he hated us all and was only a teacher for the long holidays. He's not long retired, meaning he continued for decades giving a poor education to children. I went to the Education Centre for 6th year and the standard of teaching there was outstanding. The Ed Centre is a 100% commercial business of getting results and if the teachers don't get the marks, they won't be around. Some of the teachers I had there was absolutely brilliant.

There is always arguments between fee and non fee paying school. There is some snobbery from some of the fee paying people. Likewise there can be invert snobbery from those who are firmly against paying for education. At the end of the day, it's a parents personal choice on them doing what they think is the best for their own children. These can be difficult enough decisions for parents to make without someone else telling you what is best for your children.
 
PGF2016 said:
Having attended both a public school and also a fee paying boarding school my observations are that the pupils were broadly similar in ability. Same goes for the teachers. The difference was in culture and expectation. The kids in fee paying schools had seen their parents with good jobs earning well and were expected to follow and become higher achievers. The outcomes for the kids had less to do with the school and more to do with the parents. I would guess kids attending non-fee paying schools in well to do areas would perform similarly to those in fee paying schools.

Just my observations from my experience and probably over simplified.
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I should add that having attended both fee paying and non-fee paying schools my kids will be attending non-fee paying schools. Having talked it through with my wife we are of the opinion that the schools in our area are good enough that we don't see the value in paying when the time comes. That could of course change.
 
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