Are income tax rates really too high in Ireland

[Purple]

Ok, maybe I should've quoted from the report's abstract for those who haven't read it.

Income inequality is only part of the picture. Household expenses and net wealth must also be taken into account. It is wrong that people with moderate incomes but no net wealth are having part of their income transferred to people with lower gross incomes but vast net wealth.

Why would a progressive tax system not be fair? Surely those who earn more should pay more?

I think a progressive system is fair, to a point. If, for example, people ended up only marginally better off working than they would be on welfare then it's not fair. If people who didn't work starved and those in high incomes only paid a very small more then it wouldn't be fair either.

So the answer to your question is "probably but it depends".

 

[Carnmore]

When you flush the toilet does your poo go away?
Do the streetlights come on when it's dark?
Are there roads outside your house?
Are there emergency services you can call?
If you have children are there schools that they can go to?
Are there hospitals you can go to if you are sick?

All rhetorical questions but, as you know full well, that isn't what I mean .

Those are base-level prerequisites of any civilised society, again which you know full well.

There are loads of things we get but there is gross inefficiency in how the State delivers services and, in particular, how it regulates and interacts with the private sector.

I know that

If we want Northern European levels of service we need serious structural reform to the State sector and the Unions won't let that happen.

I've repeatedly posted to this effect in posts which you've been an active participant in

We also need much high taxes on low to mid level earners and that certainly won't happen.

I already stated that I'd happily pay more tax.

I don't know what you hope to achieve by responses such as this apart from inane back and forthes, which is not debate

 

[ClubMan]

Those are base-level prerequisites of any civilised society, again which you know full well.

Which still have to be paid for.

 

[Carnmore]

Which still have to be paid for.

Obviously as they do anywhere else including the countries which have additional tangible public services rather than revenue being subsumed in to welfare and public sector pay

 

[ClubMan]

Obviously as they do anywhere else including the countries which have additional tangible public services rather than revenue being subsumed in to welfare and public sector pay

How do you think that other countries pay for these items?

 

[RetirementPlan]

Obviously as they do anywhere else including the countries which have additional tangible public services rather than revenue being subsumed in to welfare and public sector pay

That's a good trick - providing additional tangible public services without paying the people who provide those additional tangible public services.

 

[Carnmore]

How do you think that other countries pay for these items?

Proportionately and getting their priorities right. In Ireland the only guarantees associated with the public sector is the wages of those employed by it getting paid whether the service is delivered or not.

 

[Carnmore]

That's a good trick - providing additional tangible public services without paying the people who provide those additional tangible public services.

It's an even better trick to change the purpose of the public service to a wage-paying one rather than service delivery

 

[Purple]

Proportionately and getting their priorities right. In Ireland the only guarantees associated with the public sector is the wages of those employed by it getting paid whether the service is delivered or not.

That's true but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't deliver the services. People are people, most of them want to do a good job. That applied in the State sector and in the private sector. The issue in both is getting the culture and structure right. That's harder in the State sector because there is no sanction on an organisation for being structurally incompetent. In the Private sector they go bust, in the State sector they close Wards. It's really hard in both to sack anyone for being bad at their job.

 

[RetirementPlan]

It's an even better trick to change the purpose of the public service to a wage-paying one rather than service delivery

Let me know if you see that happening anywhere.

 

[Carnmore]

Let me know if you see that happening anywhere.

In Ireland unless one is benefitting from it and in denial.

In the latter case, then it's all the governments'/senior management/too many administrators fault

 

[Carnmore]

That's true but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't deliver the services.

I did say "whether the service is delivered or not"

People are people, most of them want to do a good job. That applied in the State sector and in the private sector. The issue in both is getting the culture and structure right. That's harder in the State sector because there is no sanction on an organisation for being structurally incompetent. In the Private sector they go bust, in the State sector they close Wards. It's really hard in both to sack anyone for being bad at their job.

I agree

 

[RetirementPlan]

In Ireland unless one is benefitting from it and in denial.

In the latter case, then it's all the governments'/senior management/too many administrators fault

Strange how when you ask people who use those services, the vast majority are happy with the quality of service recieved;

Minister Donohoe publishes results of the 2019 Survey of Civil Service Customer Satisfaction Survey

This is the eighth survey since 1997 that has been carried out among the Irish public to determine satisfaction levels with services received from civil service departments and major offices.

www.gov.ie

Or when you look at international benchmarking by https://www.oecd.org/gov/gov-at-a-glance-2021-ireland.pdf (OECD)or Cap Gemini or many others over the years, Ireland generally stands up well, and has been towards the top of the tables for eGovernment for many years.

Are you relying purely on anecdote for your own conclusions on the matter?

 

[Purple]

Strange how when you ask people who use those services, the vast majority are happy with the quality of service recieved;

Minister Donohoe publishes results of the 2019 Survey of Civil Service Customer Satisfaction Survey

This is the eighth survey since 1997 that has been carried out among the Irish public to determine satisfaction levels with services received from civil service departments and major offices.

www.gov.ie

Or when you look at international benchmarking by https://www.oecd.org/gov/gov-at-a-glance-2021-ireland.pdf (OECD)or Cap Gemini or many others over the years, Ireland generally stands up well, and has been towards the top of the tables for eGovernment for many years.

Are you relying purely on anecdote for your own conclusions on the matter?

The biggest spend by the State is on healthcare. I don't think too many people are happy with the quality of the service there. Taking our waiting lists and waiting times in A&E into account and seeing them in the context of a health system that has been one of the best funded in the world for last three decades if people are happy with it then they have very low expectations.

Getting back on topic; I think people would be happier with the rates of income tax they pay if they thought they were getting good value for their 'spend'.

 

[roker]

I see several posters here and in other threads claiming "income tax is too high in Ireland". Is that really the case? This research seems to suggest that this may not be the case.

Comparing Irish Income Taxation Rates with other EU Member States – Public Policy

publicpolicy.ie

Do we consider PRSI and USC as a tax

 

[RetirementPlan]

The biggest spend by the State is on healthcare. I don't think too many people are happy with the quality of the service there. Taking our waiting lists and waiting times in A&E into account and seeing them in the context of a health system that has been one of the best funded in the world for last three decades if people are happy with it then they have very low expectations.

Getting back on topic; I think people would be happier with the rates of income tax they pay if they thought they were getting good value for their 'spend'.

Funnily enough, when you ask people who've been through the healthcare system as inpatients, five out of six of them tell you they had a good or very good experience, which is pretty good.
https://yourexperience.ie/inpatient/national-results/

And yes, of course there are huge issues with waiting lists in some areas, but there is only so much you can do with finite resources.

 

[Purple]

And yes, of course there are huge issues with waiting lists in some areas, but there is only so much you can do with finite resources.

Yes, but we can do far more with the vast resources we have. That's the issue.

 

[Carnmore]

Strange how when you ask people who use those services, the vast majority are happy with the quality of service recieved;
Are you relying purely on anecdote for your own conclusions on the matter?

I am too but take exception to being charged on the double to see a GP and hospital charges in addition to funding them through taxation.
Also only having services available when they suit the staff rather than when they're needed is obviously not acceptable.

 

[Carnmore]

And yes, of course there are huge issues with waiting lists in some areas, but there is only so much you can do with finite resources.

The waiting lists and finite resources are a unionised staff creation-inflexible work practices, not working when and where they're needed, demands for "upskilling" payments, the list is endless.
In summary, these issues are due to staff intransigence.

 

[RetirementPlan]

I am too but take exception to being charged on the double to see a GP and hospital charges in addition to funding them through taxation.
Also only having services available when they suit the staff rather than when they're needed is obviously not acceptable.

The waiting lists and finite resources are a unionised staff creation-inflexible work practices, not working when and where they're needed, demands for "upskilling" payments, the list is endless.
In summary, these issues are due to staff intransigence.

Yes, damn those junior doctors, only working up 90 or 100 hours per week including >24 hour shifts. If only they'd work a bit harder, we could clear all those waiting lists so easily.

Urgent action needed to stop bullying and exploitation of doctors, some of whom work 90-hour weeks – report

URGENT action is need to end bullying and excessive working hours suffered by Irish doctors while hundreds of consultant posts are unfilled, a new report warned today.

www.independent.ie