Are farmers not covered by the Competition legislation?

There is no margin anywhere in the beef sector. Processors are not invested in capital, and have not for years. Supermarkets use beef to generate footfall. There's no one making a fortune at the poor farmers expense.

Given that the majority of farm incomes come from welfare and handouts (what was once called farmers dole) how much does the price they get for beef really matter? If they moan enough the rest of us will just have to pay them more to continue to run their businesses badly.
I'd also love to see a vibrant farming sector but that will require major structural change so it won't happen. It would "rip the heart out of rural Ireland!", yea, like ribbon development has already done.
 
galwaypat said:
Hand outs more hand outs needed to keep the big tractors and jeeps on the road.I live down here in farming country you wouldn't get much off them, they don't give much back to the community, we were trying to get a farmer to to push his boundary back a couple of meters along a busy stretch of road so kids could walk to school safely he wouldn't give it. It's a case what's in it for me.
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Would you give up your road frontage or garden for free? Maybe the people in Dublin who are going to be paid for losing part of their gardens should give it for free in the interest of the people travelling on buses.
 
We already have given 3 meters away anyone that has built a house in the last 30 years has had to keep they front wall back 3 meters from the road and rightly so.
 
As already mentioned, the selling model is broken and has been for years. The idea of businesses having active subsidies based on business activity many years ago is baffling.

It's said that we have some small amount of years of harvests left before our soils are depleted if current farming practices continue.

Personally, I would rather purchase local food from local farmers that have the highest standards of beyond organic production which are building soil rather than depleting it. This would allow viable local farm businesses to stand on their own without subsidies and serve the community with clean, environmentally beneficial food.
 
candor said:
Personally, I would rather purchase local food from local farmers that have the highest standards of beyond organic production which are building soil rather than depleting it. This would allow viable local farm businesses to stand on their own without subsidies and serve the community with clean, environmentally beneficial food.
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Very noble, but how would that work with the 1 million people living in Dublin?
 
jpd said:
Very noble, but how would that work with the 1 million people living in Dublin?
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Also what happens all the beef and meat used in restaurants, in fast food outlets etc?. Reality is that cheap food comes at a price and that price is subsidies in one form or another.
 
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Romulan said:
I have heard the same discussion on the radio about farmers/processors/retailers for as long as I can remember.

The world has changed and the model no longer works.

Many older members in my family were involved in an industry that died out in the late 80s, car assembly.
They all had to adapt, change, move on to other ways of doing things.

Not pleasant, unwelcome at the time and difficult but it had to be done.

I see the IFA as part of the problem, same old same old

And lest anyone think otherwise, I would love to see a strong vibrant farming industry.
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Exactly the consumer is demanding cheaper food and therefore the model of beef production will change from an extensive(expensive) grass fed product to a more intensive feedlot type structure such as that operating in US which will be largely a grain fed animal. This is happening already as factories are growing their feedlots to supply themselves with beef in times of reduced supply. This prevents prices rising and responding to supply/demand and is therefore not an efficient market. What hope have farmers in achieving price rises in this case. It may be an issue the CCPC could have a peep at aswell while they are looking at the farmers protest. I can see more of cheaper product being imported from Brazil etc in the years to come with little beef production being carried out in this country after this generation of farmers are gone as it is not viable selling beef at 3.60/kg when its costing over €4/Kg to produce.
 
jpd said:
Very noble, but how would that work with the 1 million people living in Dublin?
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CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) is one model that would work, and has in other cities of larger populations. Basically you have a contract between the customer and farmer. The customer commits to buying particular produce during a season/year and the farmer commits to providing that. There are other selling models too which can work quite well.
 
candor said:
CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) is one model that would work, and has in other cities of larger populations. Basically you have a contract between the customer and farmer. The customer commits to buying particular produce during a season/year and the farmer commits to providing that. There are other selling models too which can work quite well.
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I like to be able to go into a supermarket and buy what I like when I like.

Expecting consumers to enter into advance contracts with farmers on an individual basis is daft and impractical.

I have no idea which oil well my petrol comes from, nor do I care.

Free markets work exceptionally well at providing us with a vast choice of products for most of our needs.

I never understand why people think agriculture needs a completely different model from everything else.
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
I have no idea which oil well my petrol comes from, nor do I care.
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This is the same principle that the consumer is now applying to food. The consumer doesn't care whether beef if from Brazil, whether its hormone fed or whether its from the green fields of ireland, in fact the consumer is becoming more and more unaware of how product is produced. Price is the key for the majority of consumers at present. The market will respond to this by offering cheaper food which means a different farming model.

Personally I need to know where my product is sourced from and I am willing to pay extra for locally sourced produce, there will be a limited market for this type of product in future though I think. I much rather eat and pay a premium for beef/food sourced from an Irish farm than something from outside EU.
 
county said:
This is the same principle that the consumer is now applying to food. The consumer doesn't care whether beef if from Brazil, whether its hormone fed or whether its from the green fields of ireland, in fact the consumer is becoming more and more unaware of how product is produced. Price is the key for the majority of consumers at present. The market will respond to this by offering cheaper food which means a different farming model.
Personally I need to know where my product is sourced from and I am willing to pay extra for locally sourced produce, there will be a limited market for this type of product in future though I think. I much rather eat and pay a premium for beef/food sourced from an Irish farm than something from outside EU.
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I think you are right re: the majority.

But also more people would be willing to pay a premium, but not for something just because it is locally sourced if produced in same manner.
It needs to have something to distinguish it e.g. from cattle primarily fed \ grass grazed; organic; free range etc etc
 
candor said:
CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) is one model that would work, and has in other cities of larger populations. Basically you have a contract between the customer and farmer. The customer commits to buying particular produce during a season/year and the farmer commits to providing that. There are other selling models too which can work quite well.
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CSA already exists but to be frank, it is a middle class initiative which is not suitable, realistic or scalable for the majority of people in Dublin. There is an arguement for moving to perhaps a model like France where local markets rather then supermarkets provide a lot of food. However CSA and markets are not realistic for bulk catering supplies for example.
 
bit puzzled farmers states they are losing money on beef ,this has been going on for years so why do they still do beef ,most companies would have given up and moved onto something else ,what does their bank managers think of this ,surely they would advise them to try something else?
 
Purple said:
There is no margin anywhere in the beef sector. Processors are not invested in capital, and have not for years. Supermarkets use beef to generate footfall. There's no one making a fortune at the poor farmers expense.
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Are you sure?
 
johnwilliams said:
bit puzzled farmers states they are losing money on beef ,this has been going on for years so why do they still do beef ,most companies would have given up and moved onto something else ,what does their bank managers think of this ,surely they would advise them to try something else?
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Very fair question, farmers are a curious bunch

Often hear a farmer say that if the EU removed subsidies," beef would soar in price over night"

A case of presuming that a sharp rise in beef would be a foregone conclusion to the removal of supports, entirely flawed reasoning of course as subsidies are a political instrument rather than anything else
 
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