Architect produces design at twice budget

Thanks Patrick.

That's a very good laypersons guide and I would refer clients to it.
I find a list of items like this can be very useful for people reviewing tenders.
Its easy to see where below-price tenders fall apart when you break them down.

Couple of comments:

Major Items List

Ventilation
MVHR systems,with their soundproofing and fireproofing issues, all attract significant additional costs
A note could be usefully given to the client to allow for replacement filters, fans and servicing costs in use.

Insulation Generally
This is now becoming such a serious expense that it is a separate item on my list.
It includes specialist measures including sealing membranes internally and externally (in cavity wind-sealing) depending on the construction.

Rainwater Harvesting
Many people are now asking for advice on Rainwater Harvesting as opposed to disposal.
Companies like that one I cannot recall just now down in Cork have systems already on the market.
This is likely to become a bigger factor as the new water charges are introduced by the present government.

Items Excluded

One major exclusion is -
Local Authority Contributions and Levies.
This a figure that has gone to ridiculous levels in some local authoritys - as much as 10% of the Nett Build Cost.

The other is -
Developers Bonds/Insurances.
This mainly comes into play for developers or people clubbing together to build a small estate, but group schemes are becoming popular.

These are just the obvious ones where I see divergence between the traditional list of items and newer work.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Ok. I have made some changes as per ONQ's comments. Much appreciated as always. I've tried to keep the list as simple as possible and not make it too technical as the back up detail to each heading will vary depending on design, specification etc.

I can't emphasise enoough that people also look at the life cycle costs of their house and not just the construction costs. Most self builders will end up in their house for at least 25 years so if the design is not thought out fully in the first place then the running costs could far out weigh the capital costs.

I know you might want a 4 bed house with play room, sun room, study etc but the kids will be gone in 15 years and you will be left with a big empty house which is expensive to run.
 
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Patrick,

Your comments about life cycle costs are important and support the OP's general concern's about costs.
Many posters to AAM and boards.ie tell of houses in the 3,500 sq.ft. range, which dwarf the average home.

Far be it for me to tell people how to spend their money, but its clear some of them haven't got it to spend.
After all, they are taking on a project which could top €500,000 without any professional or main contractor!

Its important for architects and clients alike to remember that "small is beautiful".
A house of 3,500 square feet that is A1 rated will cost more to heat than a house of 2,000 square feet that is A1 rated.

Houses that initially appear to offer vastly reduced heating costs because they use ambient sources like solar, wind or geothermal to support 20 degrees of internal temperature in the winter do not look so economical when you factor in the replacement cost of their parts, i.e. the pumps and filters, into the equation.

The best way to save energy is to design the building to take advantage of ambient energy like solar through appropriately orientated glazed areas, gather the heat in massive heat stores, and prevent loss through use of passive systems like glazing and insulation.

No working parts = no replacement costs.

The other means of cutting bills is simply to use less energy.

This applies whether its to heat the house, to cook or take showers.
Eat more salads and fruit and don't take twenty minute showers - hop in and out.

20 degree ifestyle heating is a luxury - 16 degrees is fine for people who wear clothes.
Plus it uses your own internal heating system better and burns off a few calories - can't be bad. :)


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Yeah, we've gone down the QS route since I originally posted. It seems to be money well spent. It really does seem that budget is secondary to design from an architects point of view *in my experience*. At least with the QS you get an idea whether something is "efficient" in terms of cost/benefit. This at least gives me a basis for deciding which bits to modify or cut out.

To me the whole experience it a little like the old "consultant" thing in the hospital. You go in with one set of symptoms, the consultant says "we're going to have to amputate" and you take his word for it because, well, because he's the consultant (or in this case the architect), and he doesn't take well to 'bodies' making suggestions about what to do instead.

I feel that the architect should have presented two sets of costings rather than just the single one. One based on the ideal (and I can see the reasons for doing that in general terms) and also one that was at least within spitting distance of my budget so I can see what I can effectively cut out. The reductions on his side would be coming from efficiencies that he can recommend - replace this material with this, replace this huge window with a smaller one and a block surround, etc . . .

z
 
Its all very well to suggest what an architect should or shouldn't do.

Would you have paid him to produce two sets of drawings for costing purposes?

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Yes, I would. Just like I'm paying the QS to produce useful pricing. As I said above, money well spent.

You could flip your question on its head and ask "would you pay him to produce a set of drawings that took no account of one of your primary constraints ?"

z
 
zag said:
Yes, I would. Just like I'm paying the QS to produce useful pricing. As I said above, money well spent.
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Most clients wouldn't.
You could flip your question on its head and ask "would you pay him to produce a set of drawings that took no account of one of your primary constraints ?"
z
Click to expand...
You could, or you could simply read post number 4 in this thread where I already addressed the why's and wherefore's of all this. :)
 
I agree with the OP and feel that the architect should take the budget into account if they take on the job. If he feels that the budget is not realistic, then he should say this before going through the whole process of designing, drawing up plans, etc. Clients go to architects for their skills, but assume that their brief will be taken into account and part of that brief is the budget.

If the archtect is not skilled enough in costing the build or designing to a set budget, then why do they not have a QS working with them to come up with a complete package for the client, instead of expecting the client to choose an architect and then also find a QS. Surely if they were working as a team they could work more efficiently which would result in a better and more accurate design and cost for the client.
 
Derc1 said:
If the archtect is not skilled enough in costing the build or designing to a set budget, then why do they not have a QS working with them to come up with a complete package for the client, instead of expecting the client to choose an architect and then also find a QS. Surely if they were working as a team they could work more efficiently which would result in a better and more accurate design and cost for the client.
Click to expand...

Very good point

This is generally what is happening more and more in the industry which is evolving on the back of the downturn and the constraints put on clients budgets. It makes perfect sence to have the correct people in the correct positions in any business and this is no different
 
KKelliher,
As an arch tech I have trouble selling this service to clients at an early stage and end up using retarded msq 'rough costs'

what do you charge at pre-planning/sketch design stage for a QS assessment (you know + or - 15% sort of figure) ?
and how do you work your fee for subsequent revisions to design...

I've followed the other thread re circa 1.5g for tender stage (on 'plank.ie' as Savage calls it) thanks
 
You shouldnt expect to pay any more than €300 plus vat for an initial costing. You need it to have detail and not just a per ft2 cost plan as this can be very open ended and unless specific the costs can change quickly to tender stahe
 
I've found this thread very interesting reading as I hopefully embark on a substantial renovation project. On the question of architects' fees my understanding is that they are generally a % of the overall project costs. My concern is that there are elements of the project that will have significant costs attached but where the architects input will be nil or negligible e.g. landscaping and patios. Should I exclude those parts from the contract and deal with them myself directly? I may well get the same builder to do the works but don't need any design input as a family member is experienced gardener/landscaper.

thanks
 
putsch said:
On the question of architects' fees my understanding is that they are generally a % of the overall project costs.
Click to expand...
not always
My concern is that there are elements of the project that will have significant costs attached but where the architects input will be nil or negligible e.g. landscaping and patios.
Click to expand...
an architects jobs often includes managing other consultants such as landscape designers.
Should I exclude those parts from the contract and deal with them myself directly?
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you can leave this element out of the contract, and deal with the trade directly if you wish, i fail to see how it would impact greatly on a architects fee. note: that if this is the case the landscaper may need some involvement/ payment at planning stage when the layout is being agreed with the planners. your architect depending on the design may have some input here as well
 
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