Another Lisbon treaty referendum

Nemesis said:

All this talk of punishing Ireland is not the point. It's not about formal action being taken against us. It's the effect on the goodwill we have built up over the years. It's on the human level that the effect is felt. Finding it difficult to get access to certain bodies and organisations. It's subtle and not part of a sinster plot to hurt us. It's just like in any group or club, if you find yourself in a minority of 1 then people might forget to invite you to a party or where there's limited time to deal with some member's concerns you find you lose out to someone else where before you were given a favourable ear. It's just basic common sense human interaction stuff. It shouldn't be that difficult to grasp.

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Agreed . Its not about scaremongering, its about accepting that there will be repurcussions to voting no and considering this when you make your choice.

Nemesis said:

Could you outline a possible sequence of events for how after the ratification of Lisbon the existing EU will be transformed into a fully fledged federal state. All 27 member states are separate sovereign entities. It is quite a leap to get from where we are now to become a federal state,

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Lisbon transfers another sizable tranche of competencies to the EU; many areas where vetoes now apply will be switched to QMV; The QMV weighting is to be rebalanced to favour the larger states. The main function of National Parliaments will be, if it isn't already, to transcribe EU law (proposed by an unelected commission) into local law.

Nemesis said:

The reason referenda are not required in more countries is because the Lisbon treaty does not fundamentally alter the nature of the EU. . . The Constitutional Treaty required referenda in many countries because it essentially recreated the EU under a new document that would have made the old treaties and amendments obsolete.

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There is no genuine substantive difference between the the EU Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty. Lisbon was a mechanism to avoid referenda following the rejection of the EU Constitution by the French and Dutch people.

Nemesis said:

To suggest that the people of all 27 countries will never be consulted again if Lisbon is passed and will become part of a federal state against their will is simply wrong and dare I say it scaremongering.

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For Lisbon only 1 of 27 Governments consulted its people. No future treaty will ever be put to the people of any EU member as, obviously, the people can't be trusted; so much for "the people have spoken . . the b@stards".

Ancutza said:

My own quaint sensibilities are at negative odds with issues such as abortion, divorce and conscription. Why, if these are my life-long held beliefs, would I vote to allow these into Ireland by the back door by voting 'Yes' to the LT??

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I thought we had divorce here. Anyway we have legal guarantees against the other abominations. This in no way changes the treaty, the abominations weren't there in the first place. The quaint 17th century aspect is that Ireland seems to see these abominations in every form of progress.

Nem, you argue your case well if somewhat long windedly.

Duke of Marmalade said:

Nem, you argue your case well if somewhat long windedly.

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Thanks Duke, I'll try and work a bit harder on the brevity side of things in future

Ancutza said:

The plain fact of the matter is that if we don't roll over and accept Lisbon then it is DEAD in the water and our interests have a better chance of being heard and taken into account in future.

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You're very naive if you believe that.