Another Lisbon treaty referendum

[micamaca]

I wasn't in the country for the first vote but if I had been, I would have been concerned about the rumours of unaccountability of the top positions arising from this treaty.

But I haven't heard this issue discussed anywhere in recent times. For instance, I heard that Jean-Claude Juncker or whatever his name is was in line for the position of President and that this position was accountable to no-one. Now please don't blast me for ignorance but was there any truth in this? Or are all these high-ranking positions in the EU unaccountable already?

 

[Ciaraella]

It is also safe to assume that many people voted no based on false comments from Veritas and Sinn Fein.

Off topic but I thought it funny that the christian shops got a mention!

 

[csirl]

Sounds like a reasonable prediction to me.

Agree. By going down this path, the Government are effectively giving Libertas a chance to get off the ground and replace the PDs as the self appointed party that watches FF. I'd expand on the above prediction by saying that Libertas will probably pick up 3 or 4 seats the next general election if the No vote prevails.

 

[ubiquitous]

Off topic but I thought it funny that the christian shops got a mention!

In vino Libertas?

 

[Betsy Og]

2) The reaction of Europe to our NO has made it clear that the message put out by the Ref Commission that NO simply meant things would stay as they were was irresponsibly naive.

3) All 26 others will have gone on to ratify. We didn't stop the train. Clearly if we persist with NO we are going to have to get off the train.

4) And what about the credit crunch and the bank guarantees etc. etc.? We need the EU big time more than ever to prevent us going the way of Iceland.

To 2 above: hasnt the No camp been proven right in that we did get some concessions (... their worth yet undetermined).

Re 3: What say you to a "two track" or "twin speed" Europe? Like Miley used to say in the Kilmeadan ad - "all the taste, none of the waste" - obvously I dont know this for a fact but maybe its worth thinking about. Just how out in the cold would we be??, look at Norway which isnt even part of the EU but signs up to every agreement, is pretty much "compatable", to use an IT word, with the rest of the EU. I certainly dont want to be a speck on the outside of a federal EU because the bigest naievety in all the naievety alleged is that the EU will give a flying proverbial about Ireland unless it also suits them (take the setting of the ECB as an example - would you say the needs of Ireland gets much of an airing in this debate?).

re 4 - do you not remember that Lenihan had to do an 11th hour solo run on the bank guarantee to save the Irish banks, and then got lambasted by the EU for doing it ..... wake up people, Brussels wasnt going to help.


Despite all the above I'm not anti-EU, I just think its gone far enough, NO to a Federal Europe. The Shinners are always anti-EU but for archaic "Caithlin Ni Houlihain" reasons (the old thing of Ireland as a lady being plundered by Britain, now its the EU plundering us). Shinners have nil credibility on just about anything, Libertas - not sure of their long term value or sustainability but they are currently mining a good seam of public opinion.

 

[michaelm]

It is democracy, we are being asked to vote again, not being told that we have to vote Yes. Nobody should complain that you actually have the choice to vote on something. We were asked to vote on other things twice before because peoples opinions change.

Would you be happy with a third vote or a fourth? At what point would you call a No a No? Yes, we were asked to vote on other things more than once but after a considerable period of time or after a general election (Nice II). The No result was barely in when the Government were scheming on how to get around it. For the same matter to be put to the people 'for final decision' twice in the same parliamentary period is unprecedented and unacceptable.

It is reasonable to assume that many many people voted no more as a kick in the head for the government rather then not agreeing with the treaty itself. . . It was a vote mainly on the government, anybody who thinks anything else is delusional.

I voted No based on the treaty, not to give the Government a kick. I don't know anyone who voted No to kick the Government. I think your assessment is wrong.

Wonder if the EU went ahead and we were left on our own, how many people would look for another referendum to get back into it! Im not scarmongering . .

This is Yes or No to a treaty not to the EU. Either you are scaremongering or you don't know what you're talking about.

Despite their protestations, a second referendum will play into the hands of the No camp. Watch Libertas win at least 2 seats in Ireland in the Euro elections next June. And watch a panicked Fianna Fail dump Brian Cowen in advance of an October referendum. And watch them lose the second referendum anyway. By that stage, Ganley and co will be serious players, and even a washed-up Sinn Fein will unfortunately be revitalised.

Interesting. I think that there will be a second No and that Libertas will become a force but I don't see any dividend for Shinners. My preference is for an EU about fair trade and ease of travel (more EEC than EU) rather than the Federal State path we're on at the moment.

 

[MrMan]

I voted No based on the treaty, not to give the Government a kick. I don't know anyone who voted No to kick the Government. I think your assessment is wrong.

Maybe not but i think alot either voted no because if in doubt boot it out or just didn't vote because they didn't understand the treaty. If people were given a greater understanding of how the treaty affects Ireland without the usual sensational headlines then there is legitimate reasoning for a second vote.

 

[michaelm]

Maybe not but i think alot either voted no because if in doubt boot it out or just didn't vote because they didn't understand the treaty.

You think a lot didn't vote? This was a big turnout: 175,000 more people voted compared to Nice II.

 

[MrMan]

You think a lot didn't vote? This was a big turnout: 175,000 more people voted compared to Nice II.

I can only speak for my personal circle of friends family etc, wouldn't our population numbers have increased quite a bi since Nice II.

 

[aonfocaleile]

I don't know the exact figures but I'm sure we all agree that the population has increased since Nice II. However, a sizeable proportion of this is attributable to inward immigration, which has little impact on the electorate for a referendum. Only Irish citizens may vote in a referendum unlike in other elections, which have wider electorates. I'm sure www.cso.ie would have the statistics on population change over recent years.

 

[DeeFox]

I am concerned that the government is going to devote huge time, energy and resources in getting the "yes" this time and take their focus off the spiralling economy (if indeed their focus was ever on it).
I voted yes last time and should be voting yes again - I have yet to speak to anyone who has changed their mind about how they will vote. And, based on discussions with friends and colleagues, I think that a number of people who voted "no" did so because they were not happy with the government as opposed to their views on what they had read about the Treaty - and surely this effect is only likely to be magnified by the tail end of what is looking to be an economically gloomy 2009?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

If there was a yes vote in the first referendum, would we be asked to vote again, "just in case we were confused the first time"? I think we all know the answer to that one !!

That is a silly point It is government policy to support this Treaty. There are many many situations where a government has had to try twice or more to get its policies through. For example, legislation originally rejected by the US Congress or by the UK House of Lords. In our case the constitutional hurdle was a referendum, but if the government really has any principles it must try and even try again to get its policy over this hurdle.

Having got a policy accepted there should never be any question of "well let's see if we would win that again".

 

[Nemesis]

This is Yes or No to a treaty not to the EU. Either you are scaremongering or you don't know what you're talking about.

It's funny, the No camp are allowed to scaremonger as much as they like (our sons will be press-ganged into a European army, abortion will be introduced, detention of 3 year olds etc. etc.) and nothing is said by those advocating a No here but the minute anyone dares to broach the consequences of putting ourselves in a minority of 1 against 26 other states, it's labelled as scaremongering. Do people honestly believe that if we torpedo the Lisbon treaty with a second No, it won't have any consequences for our place in the EU?, like everything will just happily trundle along the same as it always has without any regard to the political realities of the day?

That by itself is not reason enough to vote Yes but it should be borne in mind when looking at the merits of the treaty. For those who have doubts or misgivings about the treaty they must ask themselves is it really that bad that we should shoot it down and deal with those consequences? How is it that the Czech PM who is a eurosceptic (but a moderate and pragmatic one) is prepared to ratify it. Or that the UK, Sweden and Denmark who stayed out of the Eurozone could ratify without a huge fuss yet here in Ireland we are going to make a lone heroic stand to bring the whole thing crashing down?

Of course I anticipate part of the response to this will be: What about the French, the Dutch, and the other poor oppressed people of Europe 'denied' a voice over this? Well, last time I checked, they didn't seem to care much. The Greeks are rioting but it's not about Lisbon. And if Declan Ganley feels he can build a trans-European party out of it all then he's welcome to try. I'll be very interested to see how he gets on in this summer's elections.

 

[ubiquitous]

What about the French, the Dutch, and the other poor oppressed people of Europe 'denied' a voice over this? Well, last time I checked, they didn't seem to care much.

It must be a long time since you checked. In the meantime the French & the Dutch have both voted in referenda to reject this project.

 

[diarmuidc]

Re 3: What say you to a "two track" or "twin speed" Europe? Like Miley used to say in the Kilmeadan ad - "all the taste, none of the waste" - obvously I dont know this for a fact but maybe its worth thinking about. Just how out in the cold would we be??, look at Norway which isnt even part of the EU but signs up to every agreement, is pretty much "compatable", to use an IT word, with the rest of the EU.

When we become one of the biggest exporters of oil and gas in the world, with enough cash in the bank that we can wipe our ar*es with tenners , we can start comparing ourselves to Norway, until then Iceland would be a closer comparison.

 

[diarmuidc]

I am concerned that the government is going to devote huge time, energy and resources in getting the "yes" this time and take their focus off the spiralling economy.

There's very little the Irish government can do about the recession, despite what Labour/SF/SIPTU claim. In fact their only input so far (raise income tax and VAT) will probably make it worse

 

[Nemesis]

It must be a long time since you checked. In the meantime the French & the Dutch have both voted in referenda to reject this project.

We are talking about the Lisbon treaty as an issue (December 2007). The French had presidential and parliamentary elections since the vote on the Constitution and it did not figure as a pressing theme in those elections. However I welcome the fact that there will be EU elections in advance of any second referendum here, it will help clarify just how big of a deal this is to all those people the No side tell us have been disenfranchised.

 

[ubiquitous]

We are talking about the Lisbon treaty as an issue.

Indeed, but is there any real difference between this and the aborted EU Constitution as rejected by the French & Dutch electorates against the will of both their respective political establishments?

 

[Betsy Og]

When we become one of the biggest exporters of oil and gas in the world, with enough cash in the bank that we can wipe our ar*es with tenners , we can start comparing ourselves to Norway, until then Iceland would be a closer comparison.

Fair enough, but didnt the EU already show us that they wouldnt be providing any safety blanket as regards banking crises. If Iceland was in the EU are you certain things would be much better?

To develop the main point further, I know the EU wont wait for Ireland (regardless of the rules), and thats fair enough, they're welcome to "closer integration" or whatever the plan is, but what "sanctions" do you expect from the EU on Ireland:

• immediate ejection
• loss of grants/funding
• travel restrictions
• movement of capital restrictions

tbh, regardless of how miffed the top brass are, I cant see them singling out Ireland for specific discrimination. Remember we only barely exist in terms of the European Project, other that creating hassle over a treaty I doubt Europe is convulsed at the thought Ireland wont be .... wait for it ..."At the heart of Europe" (whatever that means).

Some funding might be vulnerable but arent we supposed to be net contributors at this stage?

 

[Nemesis]

Indeed, but is there any real difference between this and the aborted EU Constitution as rejected by the French & Dutch electorates against the will of both their respective political establishments?

Certainly the Lisbon treaty is broadly the same as the Constitution but the point remains that the French and Dutch are not out marching for the Lisbon process to be scrapped. They have not voted for parties in elections that would seek to stop its ratification. The fact that their governments have sought to ratify the treaty through their respective parliaments does not appear to bother them much. Sarkozy made it clear at the time of his presidential campaign that he intended to deal with this issue through parliament. But like I said if the people of Europe are concerned about parliamentary ratification of Lisbon then they'll now be able to vote for Declan Ganley and Libertas to make their voice heard. Lets see how he gets on.