Another Lisbon treaty referendum

A

Ancutza

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Just read that the government is considering putting Lisbon to the vote again in October 2009.

Maastricht here we go again! Just what part of the word 'No' don't the government understand?! Perhaps it's that we're all too stupid to vote correctly so we have to do it again and again until we vote the 'right' way. In what sense is this democracy?
 
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It is democracy, we are being asked to vote again, not being told that we have to vote Yes. Nobody should complain that you actually have the choice to vote on something. We were asked to vote on other things twice before because peoples opinions change.

It is reasonable to assume that many many people voted no more as a kick in the head for the government rather then not agreeing with the treaty itself. Many people also voted no because they didnt understand the treaty itself. It is also safe to assume that many people voted no based on false comments from Veritas and Sinn Fein.

Im not necessarily in the yes campaign but I am glad that we have an opportunity to vote on the treaty more on its merits as opposed to the popularity of the government.

Whether or not people understand it much better is debatable, but most people understand that its important that if they do vote on this treaty its important that you make a well judged decision based on the treaty itself rather then voting based on your feelings for your government.
 
So will all the other memeber states have a chance to 'unratify' the Treaty?
 
 
It would not surprise me at all to see a YES vote this time, especially if the Gov use the threat of job security/losses in their sales pitch.
 
If there was a yes vote in the first referendum, would we be asked to vote again, "just in case we were confused the first time"? I think we all know the answer to that one !![/quote]

very good point
 

The people voted overwhelmingly "No", this should be respected, if it was a real democracy it would be.

NorthDrum said:
Many people also voted no because they didnt understand the treaty itself.
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Many people voted for the treaty even though they didn't understand it at all.

In fact I don't know anybody who could say they understood it.

NorthDrum said:
It is also safe to assume that many people voted no based on false comments from Veritas and Sinn Fein.
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I know my people voted "Yes" because Sinn Fein and the looney left were for a "No" vote.

Having spoken to them afterwards they were happy the treaty didn't pass.

NorthDrum said:
Im not necessarily in the yes campaign but I am glad that we have an opportunity to vote on the treaty more on its merits as opposed to the popularity of the government.
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What on earth makes you think this govt will bother to explain the treaty any better this time?


Everyone knows it is important to understand the treaty but since several of our senior politicians haven't even bothered to read the treaty how can the ordinary Joe soaps do it.

Speaking for myself I made a serious stab at reading it I had to give it up when my brain turned to mush.
 
Ancutza said:
Just read that the government is considering putting Lisbon to the vote again in October 2009.

Maastricht here we go again!
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What are you on about about? The Maastricht treaty passed first time way back in 1992 or 1993
What went wrong? What is being repeated here?

Or you on about the Nice treaty where we voted twice? That was ten years later so you can't possibly be mixing them up

Nice rant OP
What were you saying about the government assuming voters were stupid........
 
Hold on a second.

We have have referendums more then once before (abortion) because public opinion changed. You would find if there was enough outcry about abortions being made legal we would have another referendum.

And I personally do think that the anger the public had towards the government worked better for the no campaign then anything else that worked for the yes. It was a vote mainly on the government, anybody who thinks anything else is delusional.

I never said that people will understand the treaty more this time (or that the govt will explain it better), but that more people will understand the importance of their decision (ie not just being about kickin FF in the vunerable ones!).

If the no vote goes through again, then fair enough, I will accept that people just dont want it passed but until there is a revote nobody can say for definate that people really voted on the treaty itself.

If we have another treaty and the no goes through, it will be interesting to see what happens. Wonder if the EU went ahead and we were left on our own, how many people would look for another referendum to get back into it! Im not scarmongering as I havent decided what to vote yet, but its all good and well and saying we made up our minds. (and by saying voting no on lisbon means isolating ourselves from the EU, is that scarmongering or actually having the foresight to actually inform the public of the POTENTIAL ramifications of a no vote , better then saying it after the vote !)
 

Yeah but how do you know they won't keep on having votes till they get what they want?
 
S.L.F said:
Yeah but how do you know they won't keep on having votes till they get what they want?
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Thats a fair point and if they do then I would be inclined to vote no more and more and get more people to vote no.

Im not saying that I want it passed, but I am actually glad that we do have a chance to vote again.

I assumed that we all knew that there would be a loss of independence joining up with the EU. I dont accept that we should have to go along with what the Bigwigs in Germany and France say, but do think that from what I understand from this treaty its mostly about the administration side of the EU then anything else. Will we ever get an EU treaty that all countries agree to . . I think not.

We should not vote yes just because we are afraid of being thrown out of the EU, but likewise we should not vote no in spite of FF or because we are angry with vote 2. I honestly think that this will go through because the whole state of the country has changed since Vote 1 and some people may think taking some responsibility and powers away from our government may not be the worst thing in the world (just kiddin of course!).

I do agree that its not right that we should have to vote again on this referendum (since its the european Ministers - not public - that want us to revote). Again, I am just saying I am glad we actually have a vote! More then most countries, aparantly it was an oversight by FF who couldve done what most other countries did and slyly changed legislation so there wouldnt be any vote (or so I am told!).
 

I thought one of the fundamental arguements of the No camp in the first refurendum was that if you voted No, the government could go back and renegotiate the treaty.

People voted no, the government now seems to have renegotiated the treaty, so why shouldn't they put it to the people for another vote?
 

Agreed. The sad thing for me is that the argument for reducing the number of commissioners in the original proposal was one I actually agreed with and now they're changing back to how it was before! Anyone see Mary Lou last night on Prime Time? When it was put to her that this was their main argument first time around (Vote No to keep your commissioner) she changed tack to say there are other things they really wanted changed in it and didn't even bat an eyelid about this change. Some people are never happy! It just reaffirms my belief that they were always going to advocate a No vote, no matter what was in the treaty, as they have done for every single treaty put to the people.
 
This will be the end of Cowen's political career. As things stand there is no way that it will pass. None of the core concerns about the original treaty have been addresses, and like all voting opportunities during bad times or when the Government is performing poorly, a large proportion of the electorate will vote No in protest against the Government.

The proposed poll does highlight how out of touch the EU is with the ordinary citizen. How could they even think that this vote could possibly succeed.
 
Can the no camp not just vote no again? I would imagine this time around there will be a bigger turn out to vote so it will be interesting to see how public opinion is, I certainly don't think the no camp have a right to prevent a second vote of the people taking place.
 
This will be a resounding YES. So much has happened since the last debate.

1) We got a shock NO result. Goddammit Paddypower had already paid out on YES. The silent majority have been shaken out of their complacency.

2) The reaction of Europe to our NO has made it clear that the message put out by the Ref Commission that NO simply meant things would stay as they were was irresponsibly naive.

3) All 26 others will have gone on to ratify. We didn't stop the train. Clearly if we persist with NO we are going to have to get off the train.

4) And what about the credit crunch and the bank guarantees etc. etc.? We need the EU big time more than ever to prevent us going the way of Iceland.

I don't think the token guarantees and the commissioner thing will change the looney right/left who voted NO but the combination of the above factors will encourage most people of common sense to get out and reverse the original madness.
 
Despite their protestations, a second referendum will play into the hands of the No camp. Watch Libertas win at least 2 seats in Ireland in the Euro elections next June. And watch a panicked Fianna Fail dump Brian Cowen in advance of an October referendum. And watch them lose the second referendum anyway. By that stage, Ganley and co will be serious players, and even a washed-up Sinn Fein will unfortunately be revitalised.
 

Sounds like a reasonable prediction to me.
 
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