Another abortion referendum?

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Sunny said:
By the way and taking it away from abortion, how do people feel about inflicting painful procedures on terminally ill children that stand no hope of success apart from prolonging what could be a miserable existence?
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How do people feel about inflicting painful procedures on terminally ill adults that stand no hope of success apart from prolonging what could be a miserable existence?
 
Sunny said:
And of the three of you, how many of you have had to decide between an abortion or inflicting pain and suffering on a baby while watching it die a slow and painful death?
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I'm opposed to euthanasia. You put a sick dog down, not a sick child.
Sunny said:
How many of you were raped and forced to carry that child?
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Come on, that's irrelevant.
Sunny said:
How many of you were given a choice between risking your life by going through with a pregnancy or terminating it?
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You risk your life when you cross the road. Abortion is not a life saving procedure, it doesn't save lives, it takes them.
Sunny said:
I presume all of you since you are comfortable passing judgement on other peoples choices.
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If it's wrong, it's wrong.
 
T McGibney said:
How do people feel about inflicting painful procedures on terminally ill adults that stand no hope of success apart from prolonging what could be a miserable existence?
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I think that it is wrong if it is forced on them because it makes the remaining family feel better.
 
michaelm said:
I'm opposed to euthanasia. You put a sick dog down, not a sick child.Come on, that's irrelevant.You risk your life when you cross the road. Abortion is not a life saving procedure, it doesn't save lives, it takes them.If it's wrong, it's wrong.
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Right, so we don't allow a dog to suffer a slow and painful death but we allow a baby to be born that is sure to suffer the same fate? And we are not talking about putting children down. We are talking about prolonging their suffering so we can feel better.

Abortion is life saving in some circumstances and nobody can deny that. This is not about allowing abortion on demand and we need to remember that.

It's wrong according to you.
 
Sunny said:
And of the three of you, how many of you have had to decide between an abortion or inflicting pain and suffering on a baby while watching it die a slow and painful death? How many of you were raped and forced to carry that child? How many of you were given a choice between risking your life by going through with a pregnancy or terminating it?

I presume all of you since you are comfortable passing judgement on other peoples choices.
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That is the equivalent of me asking you if you've ever been a baby conceived through rape and knowing you're about to be killed even though you've done nothing wrong. An emotive argument that implies a total lack of compassion on behalf of the other person. I am well aware of the difficulties, trauma and conflict of emotions that people in the above situations must face - Whether they opt for abortion or to carry the baby to full term. Anti abortionists are also traumatised at times by the consequences of their beliefs. It's not a competition or about people 'passing judgment'.
 
Sunny said:
By the way and taking it away from abortion, how do people feel about inflicting painful procedures on terminally ill children that stand no hope of success apart from prolonging what could be a miserable existence?
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There is a difference between intervening to prolong life, and intervening to terminate it.
 
liaconn said:
That is the equivalent of me asking you if you've ever been a baby conceived through rape and knowing you're about to be killed even though you've done nothing wrong. An emotive argument that implies a total lack of compassion on behalf of the other person. I am well aware of the difficulties, trauma and conflict of emotions that people in the above situations must face - Whether they opt for abortion or to carry the baby to full term. Anti abortionists are also traumatised at times by the consequences of their beliefs. It's not a competition or about people 'passing judgment'.
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It's not the equivalent because it is simply none of your business if I choose to have an abortion. What trauma does it cause you? On the other hand, forcing someone to go through an unwanted pregnancy for certain reasons because you don't agree with it can cause someone trauma. Or forcing them to go to the UK because we can't deal with it.

Would you make your teenage daughter carry a child after rape? I know this is extreme but it happens. We need to admit it and deal it instead of closing our eyes and ears and brushing it under the carpet. That's what the x case is about.
 
liaconn said:
There is a difference between intervening to prolong life, and intervening to terminate it.
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Really? So a new born baby is grateful for those days/weeks/months of pain and misery before passing away?
 
What was meant to be a short observation gathering post has turned into an obviously emotive subject with several entrenching themselves for warfare that probably will go nowhere. Perhaps can we reflect?

1. It is apparent that the father has little or no choice.
2. The pregnant mother has the choice.
3. The foetus or baby has no choice.

I ask again would it be prudent to confine the voting in the referendum to women?
 
I'm on a roll here so I will continue . . .

Let's assume the abortion referendum is carried or is not carried. Who will gain if the subject is carried? Interesting question which I am not going to answer. I reckon the cost of abortion in Ireland will far excede the cost of the same facility in the UK. Therefore, the cheap flights will dictate where the abortions will occur.

If the referendum is not carried. . . will it make a difference to those going to the UK for abortions anyway?

So why have a referendum in the first place? Why am I thinking those with a financial vested interest will be pushing for a vote?
 
Leper said:
Who will gain if the subject is carried? Interesting question which I am not going to answer. I reckon the cost of abortion in Ireland will far excede the cost of the same facility in the UK. Therefore, the cheap flights will dictate where the abortions will occur.
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I think many women would prefer not to have to travel for an abortion. They would prefer to be close to family and friends at a traumatic time. There is an added stress in travelling. I think unless the price difference was huge, women in such a position would choose to stay at home. I would.
 
Sunny said:
It's not the equivalent because it is simply none of your business if I choose to have an abortion. What trauma does it cause you? On the other hand, forcing someone to go through an unwanted pregnancy for certain reasons because you don't agree with it can cause someone trauma. Or forcing them to go to the UK because we can't deal with it.

Would you make your teenage daughter carry a child after rape? I know this is extreme but it happens. We need to admit it and deal it instead of closing our eyes and ears and brushing it under the carpet. That's what the x case is about.
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Sunny

I'm entitled to an opinion and, whether you like it or not, I'm also entitled to vote on any proposed amendments. As are you.

In the same way that I'm sure many people agree with the death penalty for certain crimes and I do not. It's not just about how it affects you personally, it's about whether you think something consititues the unjustified ending of a life or not. I've explained my thoughts and am not going to get into an acrimonious row about it.
 
Sunny said:
Really? So a new born baby is grateful for those days/weeks/months of pain and misery before passing away?
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I'm not sure what your point is. If a person is ill and does not wish to be resucitated that is legal. It is not legal to give them a lethal injection to end their pain.
 
truthseeker said:
I think many women would prefer not to have to travel for an abortion. They would prefer to be close to family and friends at a traumatic time. There is an added stress in travelling. I think unless the price difference was huge, women in such a position would choose to stay at home. I would.
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Can anybody give me the breakdown on the price of having an abortion in the UK?
 
Leper said:
Can anybody give me the breakdown on the price of having an abortion in the UK?
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There are different prices depending on which option is relevant - there is a pricing list here for one of the UK clinics.

Although I cant see it written there, I think that clinic offers discounted services for Irish women due to them having to pay travel expenses as well.

Add to the above, flights and an overnight stay in a hotel - both dependant on mid-week versus weekend - and presumably the cost of bringing a friend for support (flights plus overnight).
 
Is anyone here aware that abortion is one of the most traumatic experiences a woman can have, regardless of the origin of pregnanncy? It is also one of the most life-changing decisions one can make and can have enormous psychological and emotional consequences. I have learned this from a crisis pregnancy counsellor who guided me towards decision not to have an abortion. Still, many women use their right to travel and go through with it for reasons known only to them. In any case, I feel very strongly about this issue and don't think that anyone has the right to judge those who chose abortion as a last resort.

There are valid points and arguments on both sides of the debate. As somebody in favour of making abortion legal and widely available I can not speak for a rape victim, a pregnant mother whose joy was shattered by finding out that her baby hasn't a hope of surviving, a sixteen year old with great plans and positive pregnancy test or a frazzled mother of five who just can't go through it again. If we remove ourselves from the whole LIFE vs DEATH debate and take abortion for what it really is - a simple and reasonably safe medical procedure with an outcome, we may be able to look at pros and cons of it in a different light.

We need to know the extent of the 'problem'. Do we need to educate, lower the cost of contraceptives,... We also need to ensure that those who chose an abortion are given proper medical care and emotional support. Does any 'pro-lifer' want their 16 year old daughter secretly and off her own bat flying to some filthy back street abroad for an abortion???

In my opinion, there should be a requirement for a certain amount of counselling to take place prior to the procedure and it should be cost-prohibitive in terms of it being understood as a form of contraception. That would to a point contribute that even an accidental pregnancy is taken with gravity and carefully considered before any kind of decision is made or forced on an individual.
 
Interesting post Yachtie, not many will talk from experience. Then there is the wide public most of whom never did anything for any lady with an unwanted pregnancy other than gossip, point the finger, judge, criticize, condemn, etc.

Your post would be paramount to my suggestion for the referendum to be confined to women only.
 
Leper said:
Then there is the wide public most of whom never did anything for any lady with an unwanted pregnancy other than gossip, point the finger, judge, criticize, condemn, etc.

.
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It must be wonderful to feel such moral superiority over those with whom you disagree.
 
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