Am I looking for the mortgage I can't have?

Re: .

But then you're forgetting about those businesses which now rely on part-time workers to survive. You're forgetting about retail, which over the last five years has gone through major changes and is now reliant on part-time staff to fill the gaps in seven day weeks. This is but one example.

I don't necessarily have a bleeding heart for these people...but I do have a heart for them. Anyone who gives up theit free time to work for money, after working a five day week, must be treated with some civility.

Perhaps it's the system which needs to alter in the end.

dishonesty

There is no kind of dishonesty into which otherwise good people more easily and frequently fall than that of defrauding the government.

Click to expand...

Ben Franklin

dishonesty

A lovely quote my good man, but I'm afraid I don't really see what it has to do with the discussion. I'm puzzled as to why you wrote it.

.

Why thank you VBouwue, I am glad you could enjoy the quote through your confusion.

It's relevant only as an observation of the tax evasion bent which this thread has picked up. I'll try to be more focussed in future.

Rainyday B.s.

I can't believe that Rainyday is so narrow minded with his/her views on this matter.

VBouwue posts are accurate and realistic....Rainyday's are idealistic (at best!!!!!!!!)

There are black economies throughout the world and there always will be.

Re: Rainyday B.s.

Then there's the idea that tax evasion can be compared to drunk-driving. This is where people really, really lose the plot. If we want to do that we might as well compare paedophiles to smokers...or mass murderers to people who download mp3's. It's just high farce.

Click to expand...

If you take the time to actually readthe content of what I wrote above, you'll see that I went to great lengths to qualify the comparison.

There are black economies throughout the world and there always will be.

Click to expand...

If something prevails throughout the world, does that mean that we should therefore ignore it?

Rainyday B.S.

No, but is there a realistic workable solutiion? I think not?

The black economy will lawyas be there for nixers etc

Rainyday solution is to only pay for everything by cheque and use an amex card for tipping in a restaurant to ensure it goes through the books???? I bet the waiting staff love seeing you coming back!!!

Is Amex used for Taxi's lounge boy/girls, izza deliveries etc??

I like his/her stance, but it is not practical and realistic?

Tax

Who minds your children? If granny, or auntie Mary or the neighbour minds your child for what is almost less than the minumum wage, do you declare this, do you pay prsi, do they?

There is a blind eye turned to this at official level as it suits the economy during the current chilldcare crisis,to have it operated in an unregulated black economy.

I have both paid childminders, and acted as a childminder in the past.

Re: Tax

Hi VBouwue - Part-time does not equate to 'under the counter' payments. There are many, many employers who manage part-time employees just like full-timers - with fully taxed salaries.


Hi Comicbookman - Do I think that I'm going to wipe out the black economy single-handed? No - of course not. Do I do everything in my power to make sure that I don't contribute to it? Yes, of course I do.

Hi Someones Ma - Yes, you are right in point out that childminding is an huge black-economy area. If your specific question was directed at me, I have never paid anyone to mind our child.

Hi Everybody - The fact that the black economy exists is not a moral or legal justification for it. If we all do everything we can do to cut it out, it will be drastically reduced.

Tax

Rainyday,

I accept you comment, however, you still won't admit that there are some instances where you have to pay by cash, including a tip not lible to income tax, thereby you are fuelling the Black economy!!!!!!!!!!!

Cash in Hand

This is a great debate. I have to say that I agree 100% with VBowvues views. Rainyday is living in cloud cuckoo land!

This country is being ripped off by social welfare fraud, bogus asylum seekers and such like, etc. why would the ordinary man in the street pay on the extra few bob. The ordinary man in the street bear in mind, lives among these people and sees this first hand. There is no incentive for him to declare his nixer, perhaps the Revenue should start from the bottom up?

Before anybody comes back regarding Social welfare, asylum seekers etc, while there are some genuine cases, there is an awful lot of fraud going on. I paid a lot of money for my house two years ago. Two doors up there are non nationals living in rented accomodation. They get everything paid for, get their social welfare, and work on the sly, while the state takes everything through my wages. I did take the liberty of reporting these people and they are being investigated.

I can understand Iwants predicament, and at the end of the day its about survival. By the way I work indirectly in the tax industry and can verify what VBowvue said, that there is a very high chance that the majority of these little nixers will never be caught by the Revenue.

What about the people who get Christmas Bonusus Cash in Hand. Almost everybody I know gets this, be it €50 to €1,500. My friend works in the Construction Industry and they get two bonus per year one at Christmas, one in Summer. They equate to about €3k per year. Almost everybody I know gets money in this way.

Rainyday is trying to frighten Iwant into doing the right thing morally. Iwant has to do whatever (s)he needs to do at this point in time. Some people are getting carried away and their attitude to this particular poster leaves a lot to be desired.

Re: Tax

Hi Rainyday,

You make some good points there.

"Part-time does not equate to 'under the counter' payments. There are many, many employers who manage part-time employees just like full-timers - with fully taxed salaries."

I agree, there are. But this still does not take into consideration those who take on extra employment...outside of their normal 9 to 5's. For these people, declaring extra income is just not an option most of the time. I would hazard a guess that this was the case with the original posters scenario.

You are right in saying that if everyone tried to cut it out then we could drastically reduce it's influence over our society. However...not everyone wants to do this!

Re: Tax

I've certainly given cash tips in restaurants from time to time, though more often than not, it all goes on the Amex bill. I'm pretty sure that Revenue actually hit restaurant staff for tax on tips at a standard level anyway.

Click to expand...

Just on that specific topic - I know several people who work in cash business service industries who pay tax/PRSI on their official salary but who have never been assessed for tax on their tips. I also know several people who have, out of necessity, worked their whole lives in poorly paid but completely black economy jobs. If they ever asked I've always told them that they might be better off to regularise (that word again) their situation as far as possible but I always left it at that and took no further action.

P.S. Is it time to move this one to the Greate Debates?

Re: Tax

Hi Comicbookman

you still won't admit that there are some instances where you have to pay by cash, including a tip not lible to income tax, thereby you are fuelling the Black economy

Click to expand...

.
Paying cash and including a tip does not necessarily equate to black economy. As I pointed out above, Revenue charge tax for waiting staff on an expected level of tips anyway, so I would NOT be fuelling the black economy in this way. If you audited every financial transaction that I've made in my adult life, then yes - I'm sure you would find some cases where money I have paid out went into the black economy. But I certainly do everything in my power to prevent this - by contrast to those who reckon that a 'price for cash' is a great way to save a few quid.

Hi Vbouwue

those who take on extra employment...outside of their normal 9 to 5's. For these people,

Click to expand...

Again, just to state the obvious, extra employment outside of their normal 9-5's does not equate to cash/under-the-counter/tax evasion. Many, many employers who employ part-time staff outside of normal 9-5's operate legitimately.

However...not everyone wants to do this!

Click to expand...

Delighted to see that we have now got the nub of the debate - Greed and selfishness. People just don't want to go legal, if they can make a quick buck by operating under the counter.

Hi Observer - I too can sympathise with IWant's predicament. A number of family/friends are in a similar difficult position, struggling to get their first step on the property ladder. This does not mean that we have to condone tax evasion. It certainly does not mean that "Iwant has to do whatever (s)he needs to do at this point in time". Would you apply the same moral logic to a drug addict who 'needs to' mug an old lady or break into your house and take your DVD player in order to feed his habit? Why do you treat white-collar crime any differently?

And all this stuff about "social welfare fraud, bogus asylum seekers" is pure diversion. Two wrongs don't make a right. Using your same logic, the social welfare fraudsters and bogus asylum seekers are going to say "well why should I bother going straight when all those guys are doing nixers and not declaring tax". It is a vicious circle. The average householder has a great opportunity to break the circle by making sure that they don't contribute to the black economy, but most are too greedy to bother.

Re: Tax

"extra employment outside of their normal 9-5's does not equate to cash/under-the-counter/tax evasion. Many, many employers who employ part-time staff outside of normal 9-5's operate legitimately"

Hi Rainyday,

Not to labour the point, as I agree with some of what you've said. But the above may be the case for some employers...but for many employees (within the confines of the scenario I described), the best course of action is to NOT declare extra income. So they would be looking for employers who were willing to pay cash!

Re: Tax

Hi VBouwue - Yep, I understand your point. Though we obviously have a very different definition of the term 'best'.

Re: Tax

As I pointed out above, Revenue charge tax for waiting staff on an expected level of tips anyway, so I would NOT be fuelling the black economy in this way.

Click to expand...

Are you sure about this? It definitely is not the case for similar service type cash businesses anyway.

From [broken link removed];

85. My staff get tips from customers. Some are cash from customers. Some via credit cards? How are they treated under the new arrangements?

Where the tips are routed through the employer, PAYE/PRSI must be applied to the amount paid (including employer PRSI). If tips are received directly from patrons, there is no obligation on the employer to operate PAYE/PRSI on the amounts received. (The employees are obliged to declare the tips received in their annual return of income). In the case of credit card tips the employer must operate PAYE/PRSI on the amounts of the tips received.

Click to expand...

Re: Tax

if my memory serves me correctly 10 ish years ago there was a scheme in germany whrerby someone in employment could take on an additional part time job and earn up to 500 dm (250 euro) a month tax free . the idea was to encourage people to take up the crappy jobs that no-one wants. it meant that it was better for someone to do a couple of hours in mcdonalds or working as a cleaner than taxed overtime in their normal job. it sounds like something similar here in this country would be to everyones benefit.

Moved to Great Debates, since the Mortgage element has long since been dropped. Can't think of a more suitable name for the thread.

This is a debate which could go on some time - or both sides could realise they are unlikely to convert the other any time soon.

From my point of view, I would suggest that the original poster might be unwise to be planning a financial future involving large amounts of debt when there is a chance (perhaps a small one, but remember the non-resident account holders thought this too) that they will be hit with huge penalties *if* their extra income is discovered by the Revenue. Apart from the penalties, the actual tax payable will be 40%+ of all that income for a period of years. If the income is significant in terms of the application and repayments, then the tax and penalties will be all the more significant *if* they are assessed.

I would also suggest that putting the source of the income down on an application form is only going to increase the chance of this income being discovered.

I agree that the black economy will always exist in all economies - it is human nature to enter that market given the right set of circumstances.

On the (not relevant in my view) point of people getting rent relief to live a few doors away from someone who shelled out loads to buy their own house and then having the cheek to go out working on the same balck market themselves - I think double standards comes to mind. If it is OK to use income from the black market to buy the house, then why is it any less legitimate for renters to participate in the same market also ?

z