Am I looking for the mortgage I can't have?

Relevant post

O, when I said that your post was relevant I was referring to the link to the draft agreement! What part of my mind being made up are you referring to?

Sarah, in terms of my mortgage app, you are right. It is not the ideal situation to be in. I take that on board. In terms of making me uncomfortable...it does not make me uncomfortable in the least.
 
Being relevant

I was also being polite O...I should have known better though.

Perhaps some of the mods have forgotten what this site is about. It's about providing financial info to people...not axing your grind. If you have an opinion, state it. Politely. Then stop making it. Otherwise you end up with posts like this.
 
Goodwill

In the spirit of goodwill I'd like to say to Rainyday and O everyone has opinions and is entitled to them. I understand anyone who thinks that tax evasion is wrong and I also respect that opinion. Anything that was said was said in the heat of the moment and should now be forgotten about. Conflict like this isn't nice.
In terms of what Sarah has told me it might be prudent for me to legitimise my nixer...or indeed stop it altogether. But I haven't made that decision yet.

Nuff said on the subject.
 
Re: Goodwill

Fair enough - no hard feelings on my account anyway...

In terms of what Sarah has told me it might be prudent for me to legitimise my nixer...or indeed stop it altogether.
Click to expand...

Actually I think that I (also?) said that! ;)
 
Patronising comment

Iwant, your comment "I understand anyone who thinks that tax evasion is wrong and I also respect that opinion" is selfishness dressed up as understanding / generosity.

People who think tax evasion is wrong tend to me tax-compliant. Tax collected serves to provide services to all of us. The more people who pay tax the more tax is collected and the more you benefit. So saying that you "respect" tax payers is like saying you respect the people you sponde off.

Don't get all defensive and morally outraged at facing the criticism your thoroughly deserve.
 
Re: this topic in general

I find this an interesting topic, despite some of the rather unseemly personal swipes being taken earlier. Glad to see it has calmed down.

I liken tax evasion to drink-driving. Someone else made that analogy earlier. Some years ago, drink-driving was considered generally acceptable, if somewhat naughty "laddish" behaviour. Due mostly to a lengthy public awareness campaign by the authorities, a gradual shift in attitudes has taken place. People still drink and drive, but in smaller numbers, and few would still admit in general company to have drunk six or seven pints and then driven home.

The results of tax evasion are not as serious as drink-driving - it kills no-one directly. But it actually affects more people. A drunk-driver is really only likely to cause harm to those in their immediate vicinity. And a drunk-driver may never cause anyone harm. A tax evader causes every taxpayer in the country to pay more tax themselves and reduces the amount of money available for public services - health services, emergency services etc. etc.

I wonder how long will it take for the shift in attitudes that will make it less socially acceptable for people to evade tax?
 
Re: this topic in general

Interesting debate, I want to throw out a couple of questions...

BTW I don't condone tax evasion. Income needs be taxed and there should be a level playing field where all those earning should be paying tax, and not being subsidised by those that don't

What do you do with regard to tipping? Being effectively a cash payment for a service, do you think the waitress/taxi-driver is going to declare this income? Almost certainly not, what do you do in this situation Rainyday? (serious question, I'm not trying to be smart here)

Is it wrong to pay a babysitter €20 in cash. Is it wrong to hand someone €20 note to cut the lawn for you? Where do you draw the line?

Can you not see the irony that so many politicians who run this country are involved in tax scandals, we're giving our money to these dishonest people to spend???? Sort them out first, jail them or whatever, attitudes might then change in the country. Although I think we are making progress on this front.

Speaking of the government, you see millions of tax payers money wasted in poorly planned infrastructure, poor health system, LUAS etc. etc. Why can't we have efficiency and accountability in the public system?

Why isn't there an even playing field. Why are politician's buddies (stud owners) in the racing industry exempt from income tax, when some can earn up to €150 million?
Why then do I, as a first time home buyer have to give substantially more tax (~40% of a new home goes to government) pro rata, when my income is but a drop in the ocean compared to these? Why haven't the government raised the stamp duty bands in line with house price inflation?

I suppose I could go on and on, but I think that's enough for now.
 
Tax Evasion

Hi all, this is my second ever posting but I do find this fascinating!
It's not just the tradesman who pockets the odd few bob. Do you agree that every doctor, solicitor, plumber, carpenter, teachers (doing grinds) and other who deals in cash and doesn't declare it is guilty of tax evasion?
Liam D's point about what's acceptable now V's the 70's/80's is well made. But if the little guy is just getting away with what he can get away with then surely the great and the good now being dragged before the Tribunals are no more guilty as they just got away with what they could get away with!
To me your integrity is like your virginity; you can only loose it once. Tax evasion is wrong in any guise and that's that.
And now to actually deal with Iwants point;
When my wife and I bought out last house she had just started as a contractor and had no tax return on her mostly cash income but the bank had no problem taking it into account when calculating our mortgage. A few lodgment slips were all we needed. I know Sarah said this but in our case the bank weren't too pushed.
 
Re: Tax Evasion

I'd just like to clarify that all I did earlier (much earlier!) in this topic was to politely suggest to Iwant that if s/he was in receipt of undeclared/untaxed income then the prudent course of action (generally but most particularly in the context of looking for and servicing a mortgage) might be to "regularise" this situation as a matter of urgency (i.e. declare and settle or terminate the nixer agreement). I can't see what's so contentious about this suggestion to be honest. Ultimately it's up to Iwant to do whatever s/he wants but anybody who chooses an illegal course of action (e.g. tax evasion) must face up to the (possible) consequences and the criticism from those who object.
 
Re: Tax Evasion

I do wish people would stop confusing me with ClubMan...

Anyway, this is turning into an interesting general debate about undeclared income.

For PAYE taxpayers already on the higher rate of tax, almost half of any nixer income they do declare will go to the state. I'm sure many "ordinary" people with extra undeclared income rationalise it the same way iwant has, it isn't worth his while to declare it on this basis (This of course ignores the fact that in the long run it could prove far more costly not to declare it.).

One argument for the current system is that a sliding tax scale discourages people from taking up extra work which the under-employed could be doing. Are there other arguments in favour?

Is there a way to balance income tax rates which would actually increase the tax take by encouraging increased declaration? We have seen this with the reduction of CGT in recent years (though admittedly this was partly due to lower rates encouraging more frequent capital transactions.).

What about employees whose employers paid VHI or BUPA for them in the past? Before the new BIK rules, how many employees declared the benefit for income tax purposes? How many of them were even aware of the requirement to declare it? Those who did not technically evaded tax. The Revenue have enough information to compile a list of these people. Should they be pursued?
 
Re: Tax Evasion

What about employees whose employers paid VHI or BUPA for them in the past? Before the new BIK rules, how many employees declared the benefit for income tax purposes?
Click to expand...

My experience in the past has been that if this type of BIK was not declared by the employee then the Revenue found out about it somehow (when the company filed its own tax returns perhaps?) and got onto the employees to whom it was paid.
 
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but there is a large balck economy out there and there is nothing we can do about it by attempting to force ones opinion on everyone else. Let those who choose to take the risk of being caught and likewise those who do not take teh rixk have one less worry.
Click to expand...

Loathsome comment.

I've come across a few people who have a similarly immature attitude to dole, insurance claims, etc. Why do they not think they will be attacked for cheating the honest majority? I was treated like I had 5 heads when I expressed irritation at someone admitting they had "made" money in a minor car accident in a large group in a pub one time. The prevailing attitude seemed to be "nice one".

I have to say if you said something like this in the US you would find people less tolerant. Sorry for the gross generalisation.
 
Re: Tax Evasion

This is an interesting debate indeed. There seems to be a lot of legally "correct" but not necessarily realistic viewpoints in my opinion.
In fact, I've had a good laugh at some of the viewpoints. I'd like to make clear that I am a PAYE worker and have never evaded tax in my life.
But this is not to say that I don't realise and undertsand why a lot of people work extra jobs to subsidise themselves...mere survival. The truth of the matter is it is very often not worth the extra work to declare the extra income. If they did...they'd have to give up the work. To believe that everyone should decalre all their income is to believe that everyone lives by the same rules.
I've read with interest all the posts here. It seems clear that Iwant is someone who is struggling and working hard to secure themselves a mortgage. I think this whole topic has gone offpoint so I understand the original posters frustration.
Then there's the idea that tax evasion can be compared to drunk-driving. This is where people really, really lose the plot. If we want to do that we might as well compare paedophiles to smokers...or mass murderers to people who download mp3's. It's just high farce.
What the posters here, who seem so interested in this subject matter, should really be contemplating is why these people need to work extra jobs in the first place. Here's the facts. If anyone who preached about all this were to take on a second, lowly paid job, and declare it...it wouldn't be worth their while!!!
This coupled with the ridiculously overpriced housing situation we have causes the sort of behaviour that Iwant is in.
I'm lucky. I'm relatively highly paid and already own my own house. It's easy for me. It'd also be very easy for me to moralise on Iwant's situation. I don't though...and won't. That's the easy option. The easy thing to do would be to keep on bugging Iwant until they give in. But that's foolish. Tax evasion is wrong...but that's not the answer to Iwant's problem.
Finally, this idea that the tax man will catch up with them is also verging on high farce. If I had a penny for every friendI knew who had a nixer here or there or something 'on the side' I'd be a rich man. This includes relatives who in small ways have fiddled something in their lives. I have a very close friend who works in the Revenue in this country. I've known him for a long time. I've had many discussions with him about tax evaders. I can safely tell you that the Revenue are badly understaffed and under funded in this country and are generally only interested in big fish. They're all too aware of what goes on, but really don't care about small amounts of money.
You can take my word for this, or you can ignore it. It's unimpoortant either way. I'll tell you this though. There are a lot of informed opinions on this website...and there are an awful lot of ill-informed viewpoints too.
 
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VBouwue, no offense intended, but your post is a load of twaddle.
 
Re: Tax Evasion

Hi Adrian

I've certainly given cash tips in restaurants from time to time, though more often than not, it all goes on the Amex bill. I'm pretty sure that Revenue actually hit restaurant staff for tax on tips at a standard level anyway. I guess we may have paid people cash for oddjobs from time to time, though I genuinly can't remember any particular instances now.

I'd certainly welcome seeing politicians, doctors, solicitors etc etc being hit for tax evasion at any time. I don't subscribe to the view that we should 'wait for them to sort things out first' before us little people need to act on tax evasion. It's really not surprising that some of our politicians have been caught evading taxes, given the widespread culture of acceptability of evasion that this thread demonstrates.
 
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My good man Hooper,

You are of course entitled to think that. I stand by my claims. Perhaps if you had to struggle a little bit you wouldn't hold the same opinion. And as I stated before, from first hand experience I know that the notion of the taxman coming after small time tax evaders is ludicrious.
 
Re: .

Hi VBouwue - Did your in-depth discussions with your friend in Revenue reveal what their attitude/approach to 'small-time' tax evaders will be for the next 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Did he reveal what their attitude to the bogus non-resident account holders (who are today facing large Revenue bills including interest & penalties) was in the 80's & 90's?

Neither you nor your buddy nor the tax evaders can see into the future.
 
Re: .

You're quite right Rainyday. I, nor my friend can see into the future. But I can tell you what I think. And I can tell you, because of anonymity, that my friend thinks much the same as me. You see, we are not talking about off-shore accounts here. We are talking about unpoliceable nixers. We are talking about people who take on some small, lowly paid extra work. I feel confident in saying that these people will not be collared in the near future. As I said before, let's not chastise these people because they are eeking out a life. After all, they are working two jobs. This isn't easy. I know this from first hand experience too.
None of us know what is going to happen in the future. But one can have an informed guess. My guess is that the present tax situation will remain the same for a long time to come.
 
Re: .

Let's not have our hearts bleeding for these hard workers yet. By opting to work on nixers in the black economy, they are actually undercutting those businesses and workers who opt to stay legal. This is as well of course as depriving the state of further tax revenue.

And of course, they are really being exploited by the employers - Quite simply, if all employees refused to work 'in the black', then employers would have no other option than to employ registered, taxed employees at reasonable rates of pay.
 
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